Date: Wednesday, February 15, 2023
Time: 1:00pm Eastern / 10:00 am Pacific
Presenters: Christian Nielson, Chief Revenue Officer; Matthew Wride, President
In today’s fast-paced world, it’s important to have a sense of belonging in the workplace. But what does that mean? How can we create it?
Watch our latest webinar on “Creating a Culture of Belonging in the Workplace”. You’ll discover the benefits of a workplace culture of belonging and how to implement it in your own workplace.
Transcript
Christian Nielsen | 00:00
Alright, we will, uh, yeah, we will get started here. And I know we’ve got a, a large, uh, we had a lot of folks register for today’s session, which is tremendous. It’s clearly a, a subject people have some passion for. So please, uh, keep using that chat function throughout our conversation. We’ll do our best to, to throw there. We’ve got a few questions we’ll throw, throw to the audience as, as well. But, uh, feel free to use that chat function throughout the conversation with questions, comments, and also, uh, any, any feedback on the Super Bowl for Matt was, uh, <laugh> is also, also there too, right? Um, doing the, the slow start here as, as we see a few more folks join. But, uh, I’m guessing that’ll continue. My name is Christian Nielsen. I am part of the leadership team here at decision wise. And, uh, someone who’s been a, a, a consultant here for a lot, a lot of years as well, and excited to, to, um, dive into this subject.
Christian Nielsen | 00:53
I’m joined by Matt Ride, who is a decision wise president and, uh, also has a lot of passion for this topic. So we’re excited to, uh, to jump into this and, and, uh, get our conversation going. And again, please feel free to leverage that chat. We’ll keep an, keep an eye on it throughout the, um, conversation. All right. So what we’re here to talk about, our topic today is creating a sense of belonging in the workplace. And this is, this is a, a really critical topic, and we’ll, we’ll get into it and, and explain why. But I, I think it’s something just, it’s clearly resonates with, with all of you, and it resonates with us just on a, a human being level. But we’ve got a lot of data to also kind of emphasize why this is such an Im important topic, um, as is, uh, usually my, my, uh, routine.
Christian Nielsen | 01:44
I have a couple quotes just to kind of prime us for this conversation. So the, the first quote I found is, uh, not belonging is a terrible feeling. It feels awkward and it hurts as if you are wearing someone else’s shoe. And I’ve, I’ve also got one from Brene Brown, a a who’s got a wonderful quotes all over in this, in this space. But a deep sense of love and belonging is an irreducible need of all people. We are biologically, cognitively, physically and spiritually wired to love, to be loved and to belong. When those needs are not met. We don’t function as we were meant to. We break, we fall apart, we numb, we ache, we hurt others, and we get sick. Um, I think that paints the, a really good picture of why, what, why belonging is so important, and also the risk of getting it wrong. Um, we work in employee engagement, which I’ll, I’ll talk about in the next slide. And, and I just love, uh, Brene Brown’s, uh, description here because it’s the opposite of engagement. We don’t want our employees to feel, uh, like they don’t function like they broken or falling apart or feeling numb. And, um, certainly, uh, I’m sure some of those, those phrases resonate with us as we think through maybe some of our less than ideal work experiences ourselves. But also when we see others that are kind of in that situation,
Matt Wride | 03:04
You know, as I, uh,
Christian Nielsen | 03:05
Oh
Matt Wride | 03:06
Yeah, I was just gonna jump in and say, as we look at the quotes, I’m sure most on the webinar are shaking their head in agreement. ’cause we’ve all been to junior high and know how awkward that is and how you’re testing this theory of belonging. Shame on us for not getting it right in the workplace, right? Because we all know <laugh> and have experienced these feelings and, uh, and yet we sort of still make the same mistake. So,
Christian Nielsen | 03:31
Well, this is an interesting topic too, and I, I’m just looking through some of the language that she used here around, you know, in the professional setting, we’re not always talking about loved or being loved or even belonging, uh, until more recently. I think that’s become a, a front, front page conversation point. But these, um, you know, there’s this softer side, this hu human side of this that we all relate to. Uh, and all that translates also to operational success too, you know, when we, we invite people to belong. So, we’ll, we’ll get into that, what you can tell we’re, we’re both excited about this, this topic because there’s so much potential and also so much missed opportunity if we don’t get belonging, right? So those of you who know decision-wise know a lot of our, our time is spent trying to understand, measure and improve employee and engagement.
Christian Nielsen | 04:18
And we work with surveys and, and other instruments to try to, to understand and, and, and help organizations strengthen that. Um, you know, we have got this definition of employee engagement. What it, what is it? An emotional state where we feel passionate, energetic, and committed toward our work. In turn, we fully invest our best selves in the work we do. I like to kinda shorten that too. We engage when we feel we accept the invitation to bring more of our best selves to work. When I feel like, yeah, I wanna bring more of my effort, my ideas, um, and it it goes hand in hand with belonging. We’ll, we’ll kind of make that case here in a, in a moment. When we measure engagement, often we get a chart like this. I just pulled this kinda randomly from a, uh, an executive slide deck. Um, but we classify employees into different levels of engagement.
Christian Nielsen | 05:03
And we’re always trying to understand, well, what, what is in the mix that’s helping someone feel like they can be fully engaged versus kind of these lower levels of engagement. You see, we have fully engaged key contributor opportunity group, fully disengaged. We want people in that dark green, um, category. We want them to feel like they can bring more of themselves to their work, more of their energy ideas and, and just their personality and talents, um, and discretionary effort if we’re getting into that side of it as well. Um, and so we spend a lot of time studying that. Our surveys have, uh, items across the employee experience. Um, and so we’re always looking at drivers of engagement, statistical drivers of engagement. We’ve got, um, some wonderful data science, uh, capability here in our organization. We’re studying the, the results of these surveys that we work with.
Christian Nielsen | 05:51
Um, and what we found, you know, if we look at our current benchmark and we keep a rolling benchmark or, or database of, uh, four years, if we look at the last four years and, and studied over 50 million employee survey responses, one survey item emerges the most frequent statistical driver of employee engagement. And I’m guessing we can guess what that’s related to. If you said S 25 survey item 25, you are correct. Uh, but if you work outside decision wise, and you said, I feel like I belong here, which is, uh, what the, the code S 25 refers to, you’re correct. This item more than any other item in our survey emerges as the most frequent statistical driver of engagement. I’m wondering if that that resonates, uh, with us. You know, if we feel like we belong, then engagement is kind of the natural byproduct. If I feel like I belong somewhere, then yeah, I want to bring myself, I’m, I’m part of this. My identity is aligned with this organization, with this effort. And so of course I’m pouring more of my myself into that.
Matt Wride | 06:54
I don’t, I don’t think it’s a surprise, honestly. I think a lot of us would’ve naturally come to this conclusion. What I do think is interesting as we set the stage is what belonging looks like, right? That’s to tease out the, what’s gonna be kind of, I think a few aha moments for all of us together on this webinar is that we then dug further and said, but what does it really mean to belong inside of an organization? So I, I think this is pretty obvious, but the rest of it’s not so obvious.
Christian Nielsen | 07:26
Yeah, I think, I think well said. In fact, we’ve got some slides later about kind of expanding our, our understanding of, uh, uh, of belonging. Um, and so we’ll kinda start with our shared understanding of it and also kind of reveal what the data has taught us and, and, and some of these components that might not be as obvious as you mentioned. Um, just a quick plug here. You know, we’re, we’ll be talking a lot about our research on belonging. We did a, uh, created a, a white paper not long ago. It’s on our website, not behind a form or a paywall or anything like that. It’s just open for you to get in and, and download. If you wanna read more about our, our research and our, our findings on this, I strongly encourage you to go to decision-wise dot com slash resources and, um, download this article. You’ll also find a lot of other fun, um, uh, infographics and other guides and resources there that are just things that we’re proud of, things that come from our, our findings that we, we just want to make sure they’re available for others working in this space.
Christian Nielsen | 08:26
And our marketing team will be happy if you go to our website. So let’s, let’s jump here. Uh, pulled from that, from that white paper. I, I pulled those drivers. I mentioned. These are the most frequent drivers of engagement. Again, standard survey might be between 40 to 50, 55 ish questions or something like that. Many, sometimes shorter. But, um, from a, the surveys we run with hundreds of organizations, millions of responses, we’ve got these drivers, these most common drivers of engagement I mentioned. I feel like I belong here, is the most frequent. That’s what’s shown here. If we look at the other, um, drivers of engagement, more frequent drivers of engagement, I, I think that kinda also paints because this helps us understand what what else is in the mix and these items are related to, and, and helps support a sense of belonging as well.
Christian Nielsen | 09:15
I find enjoyment in the job that I perform my job provides me with a sense of meaning and purpose. I am confident that this organization has a successful future. I wanna talk about that. Um, uh, in, in fact, we, that’s a little bit of a teaser because we’re going to get back into how that is a component of belonging, the sense of a, of the future. And then this organization cares about employees that, of course, is part of belonging. We, we tend to feel like we belong when we feel cared for, and we’ll spend some more time there as well.
Christian Nielsen | 09:48
Um, you know, just a another thing, you know, this, the conversation around belonging isn’t new. Um, Maslow’s hierarchy of, of needs highlighted it. In fact, it’s kind of that third tier right above basic needs is this, this need for belongingness as, as he defined it and, and love as he, he described it. Um, and then above that we have esteem and stuff, uh, actualization. There’s been some conversation, I think from, uh, Abraham Ma Maslow as well, which was around, uh, um, yes, it’s this, it’s this third tier, but there, there’s some evidence. It’s even more of a basic need because, um, it’s been pointed out that people will endure, you know, an unsafe relationship. Um, you know, they’ll put their safety second. I if in service of some sense of belonging, maybe that’s not a healthy sense of belonging, but that happens. And we also have examples, you know, with an eating disorder, you would kind of deny your physiological needs in some kind of, uh, desire to feel belonging and connected. And so it, it is critical. Um, it’s very important and it’s, it’s something we need to be considering as we design and shape the employee experience and culture and, and the workplace itself.
Matt Wride | 10:59
Yeah, I was just gonna comment that it was Balmeister and, and Leary in 95 Hmm. That really said, you know what, it’s not here. It’s, it’s a fundamental human need as much as as food and water and safety. So they, they move it down. They’re the ones to first observe that it’s, it’s really down below in the foundational elements of this triangle.
Christian Nielsen | 11:20
Yeah. It’s, it, it, it is, uh, fascinating. And I, I, I think that, well, we’ll build on this. Um, in fact, I, I wanna open it up to the group a bit more. Um, and, and just please, in the chat, I wanna kind of get our, our understanding of belonging. You know, if, if anyone’s got a good definition of it or, or what it means to you or how it’s used in within your organization, if you’d please fill, uh, enter that in the chat so that we can, we can kind of all learn from each other and, and just kind of get a shared understanding. Understanding I should play some, some music, but instead understand
Matt Wride | 11:57
Some Jeopardy music. Yeah. Looks like we had a, a question, maybe the name’s pronounced Mariah. She asked if the slides will be shared, and we usually just wait for a request and then send those off. We don’t, we don’t, we broadcast them publicly, but we, we do offer them if they wanna reach out after
Christian Nielsen | 12:13
Yep. We can get Matt to sign them as well.
Matt Wride | 12:18
<laugh>,
Christian Nielsen | 12:19
They’re
Matt Wride | 12:19
Worth more a glossy, a black and white, glossy included, right? Yeah.
Christian Nielsen | 12:24
One at a time on that. Those definitions in the chat. I, we must have a traffic jam because none of them are getting through. There we go. Oh, I like this. There we go. Maybe we, we did. So we’ve got a connection to mission, uh, vision and my role in supporting, I see it as alignment of corporate goals and, uh, values with personal togetherness. Ooh, I like that. I like all of these. These, these are phenomenal. Uh, I skipped a couple here. They, they’re moving up quickly. Uh, belonging is a sense of value of being valued for our skills and work being done. Um, to whom shall we address the request for slide? Just kidding. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll get the slides out, um, if we’ve, if we’ve got those, those requests. And I, I also failed to mention as I do every webinar that this, this session does qualify for, uh, Sherman, HRCI credits.
Christian Nielsen | 13:13
And so you’ll, you’ll get an email, um, regarding those, those, uh, qualifications or those, uh, the, the code to get those credits. Um, and if you’re interested in the slides, you can simply reply to that, and our team will make sure you get these, uh, connection to common groups of, of peers and individuals from similar backgrounds. A sense of being part of something larger than oneself. Ooh, I like that. ’cause that also brings in that sense of meaning a as well, and, and, and is also gonna be a key part of our presentation today. But,
Matt Wride | 13:42
But I think the, the, the secondary thought that your ideas and suggestions matter, uh, we know that I can speak up without fear of negative consequences is an important driver as well when we Yeah. Include that statement. So
Christian Nielsen | 13:57
Yes. Yes. Oh, I, I’m loving all the, all these responses feeling part.
Matt Wride | 14:02
Yeah. This last one’s really good
Christian Nielsen | 14:03
Being heard. What, which one are you referring to, Matt? Oh,
Matt Wride | 14:06
Diversity is having a seat at the table. Inclusion is having a voice and belonging is having a voice, that voice be heard, right? Taking belonging to this. It’s not just there are channels, but that, that eventually, um, what we say matters to people. And, and I agree with that. It goes beyond just opportunities, but to, to actual connectedness.
Christian Nielsen | 14:30
I love that. These
Matt Wride | 14:31
Are amazing. I’m so glad we asked this chat.
Christian Nielsen | 14:33
Yeah. I feel like I should get HRCI credit for just reading these, these comments. This is phenomenal. And, and,
Matt Wride | 14:40
Oh, responsibility for others. That’s a good one. That’s Kendra, you know, taking it to the, to the servant leadership concept. Yeah.
Christian Nielsen | 14:48
I love this. Yeah, I, I’m just scan, I’m, I’m getting lost in, in some of these because they’re, they’re, they’re really well articulated. I, I want to take these, learn from these and also build on them a bit with, with some of the data here. You know, uh, for, for Matt and I, I think we’re in an interesting position, like many of you are where we get to kind of go through these, this conversation around belonging, um, from a few different angles. One, I’ve been an employee for many years now, and I know at different organizations, and I know when I felt like I was valued and felt like I was heard, um, and, and when I felt like I was in the out group as well. Um, so I had that self as instrument experience. I also have that in, in term of, of, of being a leader of an organization and trying to shape that from that lens.
Christian Nielsen | 15:38
But then I also have the, the, the value of being able to see it through the lens of, you know, thousands upon thousands of survey results and, and also being able to work with our data team and, and understand what, where these connections are. And so that’s where a lot of our conversation is gonna have, is where we take the, the, the data and add to kind of our, our, our shared understanding. But this is phenomenal. Here’s some definitions I pulled off. Uh, uh, and by the way, this is a little bit of a different approach that we took with, um, on this one. I, I, Matt hasn’t seen our slides. He’s a deep expert on belonging, and he is gonna have a lot to say and, and add to the conversation, but I, I kept some of this from him. So, um, if any of the jokes fall flat, that’s all on me.
Christian Nielsen | 16:19
But, um, some definitions, uh, belongings, a feeling of security and support when there’s a sense of acceptance, inclusion, and identity. Uh, for a member of, of a certain group, the feeling of being accepted and approved by a group or society as a whole. Belongingness is the human emotional need to being an accepted member of a group, whether it is family, friends, coworkers, a religion, or something else. I like that. Something else that’s a pretty big catch all they put there at the end. Uh, I mean, I, I would put all your definitions up against any of these. I mean, I think, I think the group here articulated it as good or better than, than what we see here. I I have another definition, and I’m gonna hide who, who said this initially. Uh, please, if you can guess, and this is for Matt too, if you can guess who said this, I’d be really curious.
Christian Nielsen | 17:06
It’s a little bit longer, so bear with me. A sense of belonging refers to the feeling of being accepted and valued by a group or community as a feeling you fit in with people around you, that you share common values, goals, or experiences, and that you are a valued member of that group. It can be a powerful and positive emotion that contributes to an individual’s self-esteem, happiness, and overall wellbeing. A sense of belonging can come from various sources such as family, friends, work colleagues, a shared interest or hobby, or even an online community, or even a webinar with decision-wise. Um, it is an important aspect of human nature and is often associated with feelings of connectedness and social support. Oh, I like that. So there’s, that’s a good question. Is it just a feeling interesting? Uh, Adam Grant is a good guess. Um, Matt, do you have a guess of who said this?
Matt Wride | 17:58
I don’t, I really don’t.
Christian Nielsen | 18:01
This, this might get me kicked off of webinars in the future, just because I thought it would be really entertaining to, to explore what is a core human, uh, oh, that you, you nailed it, Nicole. It was chat. GPT <laugh>. I asked a robot about, about one of our, our basic human needs. Um, it, it’s interesting. So maybe, maybe chat. GPT stole from Adam Grant. I, I think the jury’s still out about how original some of these thoughts are, but it, it is interesting and, and not the worst definition of it. Um, I’m also a little worried. I’m teaching our, our future tech overlords, how to short circuit human <laugh>, understanding <laugh>. But let’s, let’s build on that. So yes, feeling included and accepted a core component of, of belonging, air hug, um, enjoying meaningful social connections. Yes, that is definitely a part of that feeling valued and cared for.
Christian Nielsen | 18:57
Yes. Feeling heard, we might add to that. All of these things that we, we called out, but something that’s revealed to us in our data and our research that’s maybe a little less obvious. I just wanna add two points, and we could, we could, uh, uh, spend a lot of time on this. Um, but two things I think that would, might be interesting to this group. One is feeling connected to the larger entity. I don’t hear that mentioned in a lot of definitions. Sometimes it, we, we touch on it a bit, but it’s not just being connected. It’s not just being connected to our team, our manager, or even just our job or even our customers. There’s value, and we’ll explore this. There’s value in being connected to the larger whole.
Matt Wride | 19:39
The participants mentioned that in there when they were defining it, they said it was alignment with the organization’s values and their own personal values. And, and, but you’re right, we don’t, we don’t see this connectedness to the larger entity.
Christian Nielsen | 19:52
Yeah. And, and sometimes, you know, we, we talk about, oh, I love my coworkers and I do love my coworkers, but there’s a deeper level of connection when I have a connection to, I believe in what we’re doing. And I’m a part of that, like, as, as an organization, I might work in consulting or I might work in our, our marketing team or, or whatever team it is, but if I can connect the dots and feel like I’m part of the whole and the larger purpose and of the organization, um, then we see deeper sense of connection and meaning and belonging, um, than, than we do otherwise. There’s kind of some surface level things, uh, but, uh, there’s, there’s this deeper, uh, sense of belonging that leads to all those good things we look at with engagement and, and, uh, reduced turnover and, and all those things when people feel like they belong not only at a team, local level, but at the global organizational level. And then I
Matt Wride | 20:46
Just wanna jump in too, because there’s gonna be a little bit of this question. Well, how is this related to diversity? And the, the, the issue is we naturally connect to people that we’re exposed to. And you and I talked about a study we came across where when individuals are part of larger community groups and they’re not isolated, the issue of diversity kind of goes away because they just, they just start belonging <laugh>, yeah. Whatever, whatever the category, whatever the, the color, the whatever it is that defines some sort of group, it, it sort of breaks down. And so isolationism is a real problem, you know, if you only listen to the echo chambers of the people who think like you or vote like you or whatever. So, um, it’s important to connect to the larger entity. And part of that is making sure we have exposure to all groups. Um, belonging can, true belonging cannot exist without exposure across the spectrum.
Christian Nielsen | 21:42
Well, I, I love that you pointing that out. You, you think about silos, and a lot of times we think of the limiting aspect of silos within an organization, but being communication or some kind of operational collaboration limitation, but it’s beyond that. It’s, we see in us versus them even within the same department between teams. And that’s not, that’s not deep belonging. It’s, it’s some kind of team loyalty, but it’s, it’s, um, it, it’s kind of a short term, uh, mindset and, and it has some real limitations in terms of what’s possible for the employee experience.
Matt Wride | 22:15
Yeah,
Christian Nielsen | 22:16
Really great. Kind of the other point I wanna add here on, on this, at kind of expanding our understanding. So we wanna feel connected to the larger en entity and kind of connected to that. And kind of as a result of that, we want to feel a perceived positive shared future. And what I mean by that is, when the Titanic hit the iceberg, nobody was really thinking, well, I really, I belong here. I, you know, you know, so if an organization isn’t succeeding, if it’s going out of business, or if it’s involved in some, some things that are, you know, ethically questionable, people don’t necessarily wanna belong with that. They don’t want to connect themselves and align their future with that future. But if an organization’s succeeding or if they believe in the mission, it’s, it’s, it, they, it connects to them personally. You know, those, those great definitions where they talked about tying into the values and, and vision of the organization.
Christian Nielsen | 23:06
Uh, that’s one part of it. And the other part is, is there a path for someone to succeed? You know, the organization might be a, a rocket ship to, to success, but is there a path for me to be part of that? Is there, is there, are there channels for me? Uh, are there channels for me to, um, explore my potential and advance in ways that are meaningful to me? And so that the, there’s perceiving a positive shared future as part of part of belonging. And, and yes, there’s some, some good comments here around, uh, equity. Yes. Uh, DEI will, we’ll address that as well. That that is the minimum requirement. We absolutely have to meet those needs. And I wanna talk a little bit about, about that. Um, if, if we don’t have an, an environment that is perceived as diverse, equitable, and inclusive, then uh, we’re gonna have a real hard time building any kind of meaningful belonging, uh, at least across a broad population in, in a way that leads to, you know, a positive outcome. So, we’ll, we’ll definitely address that as well and, and welcome comments as we we get in it further in there.
Christian Nielsen | 24:08
Alright, another group question here. Um, my, my expectations are high after that last one. I’m, so we, we talked about what belonging is, and Matt and I have some, some recommendations and things we’ve seen work really well in building belonging. But I, I wanna ask the group, what, what have you done to build, or what have you seen work or are you tr currently trying to build belonging in your organization?
Matt Wride | 24:35
Question. I’m gonna jump in while we, um, and this may be, I may be, um, kind of letting the cat out of the bag, if you will. But while people populate their responses, uh, we work with a large, you know, hospital system, um, healthcare system. And when they’re focused, um, on life-changing medicine together, they build belonging, right? When they, when they, when managers are, are focused on that, as opposed to instead of the problems, they’re focused on the mission, they stay mission focused. That’s a, a good way. And I recall, um, your former employee, how everyone at Intermountain Healthcare was the designated a caregiver, regardless of whether they were in IT or food preparation, they were designated as a caregiver. And that built a sense of belonging because then everybody realized the primary mission of this organization, our healthy lives.
Christian Nielsen | 25:36
I love that. And, and Andrew’s comment, ’cause is kind of ar around those, those same, that same example you shared, being intentional about, uh, tying inputs, uh, to successful, meaningful outputs or results. That’s it. It, it seems like such a small thing, but to do that, to paint a picture of especially the further we are removed from the end customer, you know, it, it it to, to Matt’s example, you know, if I work in it for a health system, I don’t necessarily think I’m saving babies’ lives. But if someone helps connect the dots, here’s how the work you’re doing is benefiting, uh, these, these, these, um, our patients, then the changes meaning, and also changes that sense of belonging. I’m part of this, uh, let’s look at some of these others. Boy, they’re, they’re coming in quicker than I can read ’em. Uh, yes.
Matt Wride | 26:20
Uh, someone mentioned psychological safety, and I don’t want to gloss over that, that that managers have an a, a duty, and I’ll, I’ll use that phrase, duty to create psychological safety within a team. You can’t belong if you’re constantly worried and you can’t be erratic. You can’t be all over the place. You need to have cons, reliable, consistent ways of, of managing your team. So people, it’s interesting that if consistency is more important than even if the rules are unfair, if the rules are unfair, but applied consistently, that’s a, that’s be, that’s proven to be a more acceptable place for humans than when the rules are just erratic.
Christian Nielsen | 27:01
Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I am, uh, these are really powerful examples. Um, we are a disabled vet organization. We, uh, we’ve tried to ensure hiring vets is a primary initiative and drive culture to connection and comradery to, uh, so the company provides a familiar feel to people in the organization. Just really meaningful work that a lot of us are involved in. I I also love the, um, you know, retreats to involve the team. That’s an interesting one, especially with the remote aspect. I, I’ve seen organizations do incredible things to onboard employees in, in this kind of remote landscape that a lot of us are still finding ourselves in. Um, but still having some face-to-face interactions occasionally, just to make sure we, we form those bonds and we have that interaction and, and that connection can, can be built. You know,
Matt Wride | 27:48
We’ve got so many requests for the slides this time, and maybe what we should do is scrape these comments and include ’em in the back of the slide deck because yeah, they’re, they’re really great.
Christian Nielsen | 27:56
Yeah, I agree. That’s a great call out. Okay. All of you about to say, can we get these slides? Yes. Slides will be sent out. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll be more proactive than we do in the last time. We’ll, we’ll send the slides out and I think Matt’s suggestion is tremendous. We’ll include these comments extent we can, because there’s a, a wealth of, of, of information here and, and just some really great things devote some team meeting time to each to get to know each other. Yeah, it’s interesting how sometimes we have to be more deliberate in providing those social moments. Um, I, I’m bad at that because I’m, I’m usually very task oriented. I want to get, you know, everything off my list. Um, but, um, making sure we, we leave time for, for that social and, and connection piece. Um, boy, there’s a lot here. Yeah. I, I think, we’ll, uh, I could, I could read these all day. Uh,
Matt Wride | 28:51
And, and again, that’s the power of belonging, right? We’re, we’re creating a sense of belonging with all these team members. We’re like, oh, wow, you’re really smart. Oh, wow, you’re really smart. It’s kind of a fun little, uh,
Christian Nielsen | 29:01
It is exercise. It’s, and that, that’s also, you know, part of the benefit of the work we get to do, Matt, is, um, one, we, we’ve got some deep expertise in house here, but a lot of that’s been acquired because we work with so many organizations that we get to see what, what is working. Yeah, sure. And we get to leap from company to company and learn, and we get to do that here to together. So, uh, apologies if I don’t read all of these. We’ll, we’ll include them in the, in the list. I want add a a few, and, and we kind of went into different angle on some of these, but I, I wanna just kind of focus for the remaining of our time on, on three things that we wanna call out for us to consider, um, for improving, uh, ways to build belonging.
Christian Nielsen | 29:41
I wanna say, talk about demonstrating commitment. Um, this is something that has proven to be very important, uh, and we will speak about that. And that’s a lot of our, our D-E-I-D-E-I-B conversation as well. Um, valuing the employee voice, this is near and dear to our hearts. Um, a lot of you in your definitions, a added some kind of aspect of feeling heard, um, there, and that is so important. Um, building org first managers, that’s the conversation I’m maybe most excited for because it’s less obvious. It wasn’t even obvious to me until you, you know, years of doing this, the data kind of revealed this. And it may be some of, you’re already doing amazing things there, but we’ll, we’ll talk about that and why it’s, it’s not just propaganda in terms of, hey, we have to represent the needs of the organization, but that it really drives belonging.
Christian Nielsen | 30:31
So, um, commitment, demonstrating commitment, this is an interesting one. Um, we’ve always included aspects of DEI in our, in our survey work and, and the work we do with organizations. But as you can imagine, the last few years, this has really come to the forefront. And it’s wonderful organizations and industries that historically weren’t even having these conversations, suddenly came to us saying, we need to measure this. We need a baseline. We need to know how we’re doing and where we go from here. Um, and employees are looking for that. It’s an expectation that employee population, um, is growing in priority for our, our employees. They wanna know what we’re doing, how we, how do we value this. And so, I I, what I have up here is, um, uh, two, two of the survey items, and we have a number in these different categories, but related to DEI, this organization demonstrates a commitment to developing and retaining a diverse workforce. Employees here are treated equally regardless of race, ethnicity, age, gender, disability, religious beliefs, and sexual orientation.
Matt Wride | 31:35
I wanna jump in because we, we, um, we, our, our questions measure either inputs that the organization does, are you observing organizational behaviors that presumably lead to belonging? And then there are questions that measure have, do I see and experience the output? And the second question to me is, a, is a more powerful question because we’re asking, do you feel it? Are you experiencing it? Not, do we, you know, this company has a, we we’ll see questions all the time. This organization has a commitment, right? But that’s less clear and people aren’t as great at evaluating others as they are to say, but this is what I experience. So questions that talk about how, how are you experiencing belonging tend tend to be more, I think, more useful than, than exclusively measuring the inputs. You gotta do both, but I’m just pointing out the value of measuring the output as well as the input.
Christian Nielsen | 32:34
Yeah, that’s a, a really good point. And as I mentioned, we’ve got a number of different items, but even so, we have what we would have, um, explicit and implicit measures of, of DEI, uh, you know, we, we measure things that call out some aspect of diversity or, uh, in the item itself, but we also cut all of our survey data by demographic data all while making sure we protect confidentiality and things like that. But we wanna know if you know a question around tools and resources. Is there a population in our employee base that feels differently about this? Are we giving someone a different experience, uh, by some because of some underlying demographic category, uh, intentionally or otherwise? We wanna know that. And so we’re measuring that from a many different angles. But the point I wanna make here is our employees need to know that we’re making this a priority and, and have some kind of strategy or process that is, that’s part of the conversation going forward.
Christian Nielsen | 33:34
And, and sometimes for a lot of organizations, I see that, hey, this hasn’t even been part of the conversation, and so we just need to start. And, and sometimes it’s asking some of those questions and just showing, uh, some of the commitment to get the ball rolling. I, one of my favorite techniques, and, and we stop short of saying we are, uh, a, a co a company that consults on DEI explicitly, we have our metrics. We have our, our our, um, um, our instrumentation, which are, is really wonderful for this. But in terms of going deep on this, I, I will save that for folks that specialize in it. But the, I wanna just make sure that what I’ve seen work well is when an organization shows they’re working on it and that it matters to them employees, give them a little more grace in terms of, okay, I understand we’re not perfect, but it means a lot to me that we’re working on it.
Christian Nielsen | 34:22
Um, one of my favorite things, and I just grabbed a smattering of these from the, from the internet, um, uh, our, our maturity models to be able to say, where are we now and where do we wanna go, and what are the mile markers along the way? Use some objective measure, uh, to, to try to help understand what’s going on. Um, I, I don’t know, some of these are new to me, but I’m familiar with the de the Deloitte model, the bottom right? I like that one. There’s many other great ones out there. But if, if, if we’re not even, you know, if, if we’re early in our journey, this is probably where I’d recommend we start. We, we try to assess where are we on, on the, the diversity or the DEI kind of landscape. Um, and, and where are we now? Where do we wanna go? And, and what level of commitment do we have from the organization, especially senior leaders as we try to make this happen. Um, Matt looked like you, <crosstalk>, I’m
Matt Wride | 35:16
Just gonna jump in and say, leaders need to paint a picture, not of what they’re going to do, but of what they want it to feel like and be like, yeah. Right. Describe the end. What, what does it mean to have an, an organization where people belong? Describe that in detail. Not we’re going to do this and we’re going to ensure that all of our ca, that all of our applications contain this precise ratio of diverse candidates to non-diverse. Don’t describe that. Describe what, what the Promised land is and help people envision that. Uh, you know, I love this quote that if you want, and, and it’s from, uh, St. Expiry. He wrote the book, the Little Prince, if you want Men to, to build boats, don’t, don’t divide ’em up and give them wood and give them assignments. Teach ’em to yearn for the vast, endless sea, and they’ll build boats, right? Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And that’s what we have to do with diversity, equity, and belonging, is we have to paint a picture of, of how amazing it could be to belong to an organization that is, has made this a priority,
Christian Nielsen | 36:21
Right? I love that. And, and having that, that vision and painting, painting where we’re, we’re headed. I also love that once, once we have that, let’s, let’s take some of the guesswork out in terms of, I feel like we’re getting better. Well, are you getting better? How do we measure it? Uh, we obviously believe in surveys, um, to a certain extent, but I love these maturity models that give you, well, for example, in that Deloitte one, I know it’s an eye chart at this size, but compliance to programmatic, to leader led to integrated. There are things we’d look for at each of those stages, or you should look for. And so having, having some kind of real targets that you’re going for, I think is key, is we don’t wanna just be guessing. Yeah, I feel like we’re better in DEI than we were in the past.
Christian Nielsen | 37:06
But if we’re not, uh, at least meeting those requirements and demonstrating the commitment, then we’re gonna have some challenges. Um, the next one I wanna put there, and I, I think this resonates with a lot of us, value the employee voice value, the employee voice. We, and that, by the way, is supposed to be an ear, uh, icon from our icon library. I don’t know if it looks like an ear, but it’s, it’s an ear. Uh, are we listening to employees? I feel cared for when I feel heard? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that. I’ve also can’t tell you how many times I’ve felt that myself, if no one’s listening to us. It doesn’t mean that they, that all my ideas are implemented. They are certainly not. But if e even if I just know someone heard me, my idea is not the best idea right now for our organization or for this team, or whatever it is.
Christian Nielsen | 37:56
Someone closed the loop. I felt heard, I felt valued. That’s part of belonging. It’s something that every organization can do a little bit better at. Um, and, and it’s amazing how much a manager can step in and represent the organization in that moment. Um, I might not have the ear of the CEO, but my, if I, if my boss talks to me and closes the loop when I have an idea, suddenly I feel heard. I feel a little bit more connected at that organizational level as well. Um, I kind of wanted to, uh, you know, to put this into two categories, ways we can show demonstr, uh, value the employee voice. The first I said is kind of mechanical implement listening mechanisms. That’s obviously where we live. And, and, uh, decision-wise, we do employee surveys, um, and, and 360 feedback assessments. Uh, we also do, you know, pulses onboarding exit, but open up those channels, those mechanisms so that we have feedback coming in.
Christian Nielsen | 38:52
We wanna have that, that happening so people have moments along the lifecycle and throughout the year to provide feedback. And it’s, and it’s, it’s set it, and don’t forget it, but set it and make sure it happens. And that the feedback is, is flowing in that the voice is flowing in. And also, as someone mentioned earlier in the chat, we’ve gotta respond to those things. Those things have a time, uh, limit. Uh, I, the, maybe the most disappointing aspect of my job when I was consulting on engagement surveys is when people delayed response, I even, I would rather they respond ineffectively, but do it quickly, then respond to the right things a year later. I mean, that doesn’t do anything. People wanna feel heard and see some kind of response, feel some kind of action being taken. Um, and it needs to happen as quick as possible to the time that feedback was delivered.
Christian Nielsen | 39:44
Um, but that’s, that’s a component there. And then, so the mechanical, but then there’s the cultural side, and they go hand in hand. But building a culture that where people understand this is how we do things around here, we value the voice of our employees. And this takes time. It takes examples, it takes celebrating stories of when we got it right. And, and building kind of these cultural artifacts so that people understand how to act when it’s not completely scripted. When I’m a new manager, I know I need to listen to my people because my manager listened to me. And, and I see the CEO listening to employees and, and those types of things. And then demonstrating that we, we listen, we understand and we act. And act doesn’t always mean we take every suggestion and run with it. It, but we close the loop. We act in response to the, the feedback.
Matt Wride | 40:30
Sometimes acting is merely acknowledging you heard it and then giving an explanation as to why either that, uh, suggestion has been done or it’s been tried. I have a friend who just joined, uh, a large organization, and the, and he’s a new member. And, and, and there were about 50 new coming members to this, to this organization. It’s a nonprofit, and they do community outreach. And the person came in and said, look, if you have ideas for us, that’s great. We value your ideas, but just know that we’ve tried everything three, three ways to, to sundown and, and then took the time to make sure that they, they could see that they do try to implement ideas. And so I, I share that story just because sometimes a manager can’t do anything. But if you can acknowledge and then explain why you can’t, that may be the only action that’s required.
Christian Nielsen | 41:23
Yeah, I, I love that. I, I love that. And that can be a meaningful thing just to have that, that moment where someone closes the loop with us. It’s, it’s powerful. I, I like, uh, Ashley’s comment around 30, 60, uh, day check-ins in six months. That, that’s great. And, and just, and I love that approach, and I love the idea of a stay interview. Um, we’re trying to build belonging. And the more we can check in and see, you know, are people feeling connected? Are they feeling seeing a, a, a future for themselves here? Um, those touch points can be really meaningful and, and, and feel we, we could feel cared for in, in those, those, uh, those instances. Um, okay, let me, um, let me jump to the next one. I mentioned earlier, this is the conversation I’m may be most excited about, um, here, uh, one, because I got to use more of our icons, uh, build org first managers, building org, first managers.
Christian Nielsen | 42:21
I wanna talk about the difference in a manager. Um, I’ve got three kind of archetypes here that hopefully you’re, this resonates at least with what you’ve seen. Uh, maybe we don’t wanna see many of these, but the me first manager, occasionally we bump into one of these animals where they’re gonna seek their own agenda at all, all costs, even above their team. Uh, they’re, they’re looking for compensation, promotion, recognition status. They might be just setting up their next opportunity. Um, and, and it doesn’t mean we, we don’t want people that are driven and, and are, are looking after their own growth. But if that’s all they care about, and if it’s at the expense of the team at the expense of the organization, it’s not great. Now, these people don’t usually do a great job of hiding. We usually kind of can see them for what they are, uh, fairly, fairly soon in terms of, you know, they leave a trail of destruction behind them.
Christian Nielsen | 43:12
Um, but, uh, they, they do exist. And, and sometimes they can be very hard workers be, but they’re working in service of their own, their own good. And, and we don’t wanna confuse hard work with virtuous intent. So there are things as, there’s such a thing as a me first manager, what’s I think more common and act potentially more damaging is what’s called the team first manager. And, and by the way, I owe this to, uh, we owe it to our colleague Dave Long, who kind of introduced these terms here. Um, but the team First manager is interesting, and it’s, it’s more nefarious because it looks like it’s a, a, a good thing. A team first manager, they put their team in front of their, their, their own needs. That what, what could be bad about that? I, we’ve got this, the cool guy sunglasses on here.
Christian Nielsen | 44:02
Um, they, they want everyone to be happy. Well, a team first manager, it appears to be great, a great thing, but it comes at the expense of the organization. Uh, they prioritize team happiness above the success of the organization. They’ll serve as a martyr for the team, uh, marked by strong team connection, but low organizational perceptions. So a, a team first manager will often say, Hey, look, corporate’s telling us we gotta do this. I don’t like it either, but we, you know, let’s get, just get through it. It’s that type of thing. They’re throwing the company, the organization under the bus and, uh, in a, in a kind of a self-serving or team serving thing where like, Hey, um, I’m looking out for you. Um, and, and it can cause some damages. There’s some short term benefit to them personally where they, there’s some loyalty to them.
Christian Nielsen | 44:52
There’s, the team seems to be benefiting, but it’s really has some li it really has some limitations in terms of what’s possible for belonging, as we kind of mentioned earlier. ’cause they’re not connecting them back to the larger organization. Um, and they’re also, it can create some me, us versus them mentality, and I’ll show you what that looks like in a survey here in a moment. But they’re, they’re constantly seeking the approval of the team. They’re confusing harmony and team happiness with positive operational, um, results. And from the outside looking in a team first manager doesn’t look like a bad thing. But, uh, it’s also what I would say the default of many new managers I’ve never managed before. And now I suddenly am managing people. I’m gonna do whatever I can for this team. And I haven’t quite developed the muscles to connect them back to the larger picture or to think globally. And that can be a, a problematic.
Christian Nielsen | 45:48
Um, I’ll show you what we see in a survey. I, I kind of mocked up some. This is a very realistic thing. So when, when we run an organizational survey or an engagement survey, we often, uh, design our surveys that have categories or dimensions, uh, related to my job. So there’ll be a bunch of questions about my job, a bunch of questions about their manager, a group of questions about my team, my organization. And then we look at those scores in, in aggregate for each of those dimensions. And what we can see here, um, this is something, a realistic view. We, we’d often see this, and something I’ve learned over time to look for is this right here, strong manager and team scores, low org scores. And,
Matt Wride | 46:26
And I wanna jump in because then if you look at the engagement levels on their team, when you find these, you’ll see engagements low.
Christian Nielsen | 46:34
Yeah, exactly.
Matt Wride | 46:35
So those three greens of 85, 98 and a hundred do not equate to engagement. And that’s the big aha that you and I were, were just dumbfounded almost when we realized what Yeah, we, we were shocked almost.
Christian Nielsen | 46:49
It’s, it’s really fascinating when we, when we look at the statistical drivers of engagement or belonging, the manager doesn’t show up. It’s not that manager relationship. Now that manager relationship is important and the manager can shape so much of that employee experience. So I’m not saying that, but it’s not important for the reasons we think it is, or reasons I thought it was. It’s important because a manager helps connect the dots back to the organization and paint the bigger picture. Um, that’s where we see the biggest statistical influence a manager can have. Yes, of course, we have to have, we rely on the manager to set the tone to, to represent and, and, and promote all the inclusivity that we, we need as an, an organization. But we really also need them to help the see themselves as part of the whole, all those great, um, recommendations we saw earlier about connecting inputs with outputs in the larger picture, all of that. Um, but that statistically emerges time and time again that that’s, that’s where the manager can make the biggest difference.
Matt Wride | 47:48
And if I can, I just wanna point out like if you saw my manager score was a red and it was 34%, then engagement’s gonna be down. So managers, poor management absolutely has a deleterious effect on engagement. But what’s interesting, if scores are high, as we show here and the organizational score is low, they’re not gonna compensate for that. So yeah, if you have an erratic boss, you have an unfair, they, they do all the, the bad things that you think of and the jokes and all of that. Sure. Engagement’s not gonna be high. But you, if you have a high performing manager who does not also do what we call ride for the brand, you know, tie back to the organization, it’s not enough. They don’t engage to the manager itself. Yeah. Him or herself.
Christian Nielsen | 48:36
Yeah, that’s a great point. And, and Kevin had a good question. What about the, uh, what about team one with high? It was a hundred percent, but high org. Yeah, so it’s high across the board. This is great. It’s not saying we want either or, um, it, it’s just if I see a high manager score and high team score and a really low org score, then I ask a few follow up questions about, okay, why are we not transferring the glow back to the organization? At least to a certain extent. And, and, and I’m not saying, and I don’t even get worried if the org score is a bit lower than those team scores. Um, but if it’s that low, like we see here, 39% versus a hundred percent for the team, then that paints a picture that we might have a, a team first situation going on there and, and we, we might need to provide some additional support to this, this manager. Uh, but yeah, uh, strong score across the whole would be great.
Matt Wride | 49:28
And, and our, our hypothesis is that team first managers use the, the organization as a foil or as a straw man, they, yeah, they tear down the organization in order to tear themselves up. So they complain, they, they, they, they create dependency on them and, and everything’s the org’s fault. And that’s, that’s the trouble. Yeah. And, and so when managers can do it all and still be there for their team, and but also say, but we’re, we’re lucky to be part of an organization making a difference where, you know, this organization has missteps, but that’s okay. I’ve never seen an org get it, get it right. Completely. You know, those types of conversations. That’s when you have a home run and that’s what you have in, in team one. Yep. Yeah. But, but, but by org, what we’re trying to say folks is that’s not independent of the team. Meaning if, if that manager is not, that manager is, is has an impact on that, my organizational score.
Christian Nielsen | 50:26
Right? Right. And, and usually if I scan a large organization, we’ll see a handful of teams like this. It’s not, it, it usually doesn’t dominate sometimes, um, union environments or, or, or, or some, some different pockets. We’ll see some different patterns emerge and things like that. But, uh, it, it is something, especially if you start to review your data, this is another thing to look at. So we often look at broad trends. What are we seeing as an organization? Also, where do we have pockets where we might need some additional intervention or support? And this is a team five in this case would be one that I’d recommend you at least look at. Well, let’s look at our, our angel icon here. Um, if we go to our, our org first, I mean, this kind of paints the picture that it doesn’t mean and org first. I worry that that would sound a bit like propaganda to the frontline employee, but
Matt Wride | 51:20
Cheerleading, you know. Yeah. It’s not a cheerleader.
Christian Nielsen | 51:22
Yeah. And it, and it’s not a propaganda machine. It’s not someone that does the org first at the expense of the employees. It’s org first in service of the employee. It’s, it’s, um, I’m not, I’m not going to tear down the, the organization to try to make a conversation easier on me as your manager. I’m gonna give you the, the, the bigger picture story and to show you how you fit in there. It’s not, I’m gonna b burn out my people in the front lines because I’m trying to hit some organizational metric. That’s not what we’re talking about. It’s really how do I help people feel like they’re part of the whole, in fact, Matt, maybe you want to kind of introduce the, the ride for the brand and
Matt Wride | 52:02
Yeah, we, we, it’s, it’s, it’s actually something you, you, you talked about, we were, uh, uh, talking about a group that does cowboy poetry. We’re in Utah and there’s cowboy poetry is this weird cultural thing. And if you ever get a chance to experience, I, I recommend it <laugh>. But in it, there, there were some guys that would talk about riding for the brand, and it was a reference to cowboys who, when they signed on to work for a ranch, they, they showed complete faithfulness to that ranch. Right. And that’s what we mean by ride for the brand. We’re not, again, you’re not a marketing leader. You’re not supposed to, um, we’re not talking about, uh, a Pollyanna view. It can be realistic, and it can be critical of the org, but it’s fair and it’s loyal and it’s mission focused. That’s what we’re talking about when we, when we mean ride for the brand. Yeah,
Christian Nielsen | 52:55
Yeah. And, and do they represent the larger, the larger entity in a positive way and versus are we, are we just in it for kind of some short term in incentive there or short term thing, or to make it easier on ourselves? Sometimes I think that the organization suffers, especially with those newer managers. If, um, if we’re not comfortable with crucial conversations, if I’m not comfortable giving you, Hey, we’ve gotta work overtime this week and not being, you know, it’s, it’s easier for me to say, Hey, the big boss is making us do this, versus here’s why we’re doing this. We’re we’re trying to hit this goal be before this happens and everything’s coming down to us, we’re the best team for it. You know, that’s a different conversation. Alright, let’s, let’s, uh, there
Matt Wride | 53:42
Was a question. Kenny’s classifications be used for non-manager employees and, and the answer is yes. And that goes back to, are your personal values aligned with the values of the organization then, then you will ride for the brand as a non-manager employee.
Christian Nielsen | 53:58
Yeah. That’s great. Great. A, a really great question and, and a, a strong response there. Yes. They certainly apply, uh, to non-managers as well. Uh, I just have a another quote kind of to bookend the, the conversation here. We could, we could chat about this and certainly DEI, uh, for a long time. There’s, there’s so much here and it’s so important to the experience of employees and so much is possible if we get belonging, right? But I, I wanted to end with this quote. I long as does every human being to be at home, wherever I find myself. Um, I think that paints a, a nice picture in terms of we want people to feel comfortable here, but we also want them to feel like they have a place, uh, that, that they are welcome and not only welcome, but they’re part of something, something meaningful, something that values them, something that depends on them. Uh, that’s something I think we all want as employees and we want for our employees. So, um, I know that was kind of a rapid fire trip through this content, but what, do we have any final questions in our last five minutes as we um, oh yeah,
Matt Wride | 55:01
I just wanna, yeah, I just wanna acknowledge that everybody’s got differences and there can be some really toxic senior leaders. And we’re, and I know we’re talking a bit about, of a, about, we’re, we’re, we’re imagining best case scenarios and we get it. The people struggle. I think at the end, what we’re saying is, is when we act that this whole notion of being positive and bringing positive energy, it matters and it, it’s one of the ingredients that builds belonging. Yeah. Um, and, but I do want to acknowledge that there are struggles out there and we’re not trying to minimize that and organizations need to get better. Um, but we could be part of helping them get better by, by being empathetic and by giving people the benefit of the doubt and by writing for the brand. So
Christian Nielsen | 55:48
Yeah. I love that. I love that. Thank you Matt. Um, uh, I’m gonna, if we’ve got questions, we, we do have a few minutes here. I’m gonna flash this here too, and just, uh, if, if we have, uh, other questions down the road, feel free to email us at info at decision-wise. Again, we’ll send out the, the HRCI and the s RM credit, uh, codes, as well as slides. Uh, once our team has a, a moment to try to add some of these wonderful comments, uh, into the slide deck. Again, if you’ve got questions about employee surveys or you should also have 360 feedback here, which is where we spend a lot of our time there. But, um,
Matt Wride | 56:24
Well, and, and that’s a big miss on our part. The, those are questions. We wanna start adding belonging questions to your three sixties. If you’re not helping leaders know whether people feel like they belong. So we’re, we’re in the process of working on that as a, as a, as a core competency. Yeah. Does my, does my leader build belonging and are they doing it? And, and do they value diversity? Do they value equity as somebody mentioned, which is not the same thing as equality and, and we agree. Those are things that are really great topics and timely for, for modern three sixties. Yeah.
Christian Nielsen | 56:58
Really, really great point. And, and in that 360 space, you know, we talked about the mechanisms, but also, or the mechanical, but also the cultural. That’s a really great way to kind of address both culturally. We want our managers to know part of your job, part of the leadership competency we have for you as a leader in this organization or manager in this organization is to, uh, build and foster belonging. And, and there’s some, there’s some skill sets that we care about and we’re measuring related to that. Alright, well wanna thank everyone for, for attending this and please feel free to reach out if you’ve got additional questions or about the, this content or any of our products and services. We love doing these sessions. I hope you can feel that we’re, we’re really passionate about this as well as, uh, as you are. So thank you.
Matt Wride | 57:44
Bye everybody.
