Engagement Q&A: How to Finish What We Start

Date: Wednesday, March 23, 2023

Time: 1:00pm Eastern / 10:00 am Pacific

Presenters: Dr. Tracy Maylett, CEO, Decisionwise; Tim Vandehey, Award-Winning Author, Matthew Wride, President, DecisionWise

Transcript

Matt Wride | 00:01 

Okay. Uh, I think we’re admitting people to our webinar this morning. Good morning. Uh, my name is Matt Wride. I’m the President of Decision Wise, and I’m being joined today by Tim Van Dehi and Dr. Tracy Maillet. Welcome. Thanks, Matt. Thanks, Matt. Um, yeah, yeah. And welcome to those attending this webinar. Uh, we’re excited to have you participate today. There, there is a chat feature, and as we talk and you feel like you have a question, uh, probably the best way to, for me to see that question and for us to get that to our authors here would be through that chat feature. Um, this is a, a, a standard decision-wise, uh, webinar. We do one of these each, each, uh, month, and we’re particularly delighted to, to highlight, uh, uh, Tim and Tracy’s work. They have a new book that released yesterday. It’s pretty exciting stuff. 

Matt Wride | 00:56 

And it’s titled, swipe the Science Behind Why We Don’t Finish What We Start. Um, and so as we jump in, I’m going to just sort of give you their bios and, uh, let you kind of get a feel for what they’ve done in the past. Talk about a few logistics about the credit that you can earn, and then, and then we’ll dive into some questions. So, um, let me, let me start with Tracy. Tracy is a CEO organizational psychologist, researcher, speaker, and university professor. He advises leaders throughout the world on employee engagement and organizational effectiveness. Dr. Meit is an internationally recognized bestselling author who travels the globe exploring culture, motivation, and how people and organizations think. So, swipe was, is right up his alley. He has published numerous articles in the field of organizational psychology and employee engagement, and has authored three previous award-winning books, including the bestsellers, the employee experience, how to attract talent, retain top Performers, and Drive Results. 

Matt Wride | 01:58 

And then probably the one he is most noted for Engagement Magic, five keys for engaging people, leaders, and organizations. So that’s tracing. Now, let’s turn to Tim. Tim is a journalist, a columnist, and a New York Times bestselling ghostwriter of more than 65 nonfiction books. Uh, the genres include business, finance, ad advice, outdoor adventure, religion, memoir, parenting and health. He’s been featured in Fast Company, Inc. Forbes entrepreneur. And his ghost written books have been published by major houses, including Harper Collins, Simon and Schuster, Ette, w Wiley, and Sons, St. Martin’s Press, and the MIT press. Tim’s work has also garnered numerous awards including multi, multiple Axiom business book medals and independent publisher book awards. He holds a bachelor’s degree in English, which is appropriate from California State University Fullerton. And something that I like to talk to Tim about, he is an accomplished jazz vocalist, writing coach and a sailor. So, again, welcome, uh, anything that I missed, gentlemen, before we, uh, that you want your audience to know about you. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 03:09 

I, I think those are the same canned introductions that we make our families give when we arrive home from work at the end of the day. 

Matt Wride | 03:16 

Right? Yeah, welcome. Your, your, your spouse is there, you know, saying this as you enter the room. Of course. Um, so this, this webinar is eligible for HRCI and SHM Credit, and those codes will be mailed or emailed to you after. If you need information about this webinar, you can email info@decisionwise.com to reach us. Alright. I wanna start with this quote. This is the quote that I’ve pulled out from swipe and, um, what I feel captures the essence, and you may have others, but this is for me, and it says, but someone with a high degree of metacognition, aware of the swipe and their, and which we’re gonna talk about and their own reflex to avoid discomfort, can have a different experience at the crossroads. If we’re educated about what the pursuit of our goal might bring and aware of our own thoughts, we can stand at the junction of those two choices and make a conscious decision to lean into difficulty and remain engaged with our goal. 

Matt Wride | 04:15 

I think that’s a noble, uh, aspirational quote. And one thing I like about Swipe is that it’s, we talk about stoicism ma on a macro level, but swipe is about how to do this at the individual level. You know, how do you embrace the challenges, embrace, um, the suck sometimes, and just do things. And, um, I’m, I really appreciate the insights that I was personally able to glean from the book, um, and understand that. So let me start with the title of the book, and either one can answer this, um, but it, it’s unique. Tell tell our audience a little bit about why it’s called Swipe. 

Tim Vandehey | 04:54 

Well, um, Tracy and I got together in my hometown of Kansas City in 2020 and to talk about, uh, what was originally gonna be a follow-up book to an engagement magic and the employee experience. And we were gonna talk about, um, the employee side of the engagement equation, you know, why, how, how to get ’em, how, how organizations can get employees to engage. And the idea we started landing on, you know, book brainstorming at the, at the, the, the brute force level is about big ideas and concepts, and sometimes titles and sometimes words and one word titles are always great. And so we, we bandied a bunch of things back and forth as we always do, and we found ourselves attracted to this idea of distraction and withdrawal from uncomfortable realities and how closely it was related to the idea of being engaged in the digital world, and the ease of changing your digital experience on something like a smartphone or a tablet. 

Tim Vandehey | 05:59 

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> by simply swiping a screen or tapping the icon for an app, you know, how you could just, um, very easily have change your experience on impulse without really any forethought. And we, we, we thought about the word, we thought, well, the word swipe captures that pretty well. Of course people are familiar with it because of Tinder. Um, but we thought that really captured the, the essence of the impulse, the impulse to what we call reality switch. And we’ve realized that, you know, we, we’ve, this has been confirmed since then by research that we’ve become conditioned to do that to a great degree and try to apply it to the physical world. And, and you know, that I’m sure people and people in the, the audience will have, um, will have experienced this. ’cause I know most everybody has it. I’ve talked to about it. 

Tim Vandehey | 06:47 

The example I like to use is something I’ve done a hundred times, which is I’m used to writing on a, on a computer keyboard. People are used to doing on a tablet or a phone or whatever. And when you then switch to writing longhand using a pen or a pencil on, say a yellow pad or something like that, and you make a mistake, and for that one split second, you unconsciously find yourself looking for the und undo function <laugh>. And then you catch yourself and you chuckle and you, you know, you slap yourself in the ing off that’s just silly and, you know, and then you move on. But it’s that unconscious moment is the moment of conditioning where we don’t really think we can swipe reality. It would be cool if we could, but we are still conditioned to think that we can. And Tracy and I hit on that during that conversation, that was going to be the concept behind a book about why employees disengage and how to get them to engage. And it became a bigger thing when you realized that it was really about people not finishing what they start. But that was the behind the title. 

Matt Wride | 07:49 

That’s fascinating, because what you’re really saying is, is because we live in this digital world, and you know, it’s hard to remove yourself from a physical environment, but it’s very easy to remove yourself almost instantaneously from a digital or virtual environment. It’s conditioning us to, to sort of almost make that the default for what we do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Who’s the intended audience? You touched upon that, but I wanted to make sure we cover that a little bit deeper. Who, who do you think the intended audience is for this book? 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 08:19 

You know, when we originally, as Tim mentioned, when we originally set out to write this book, it was about how do we get employee to reengage in their, in their work environment. So the original audience was truly the business environment, which is what we’ve written to in the past, the organization, organizational managers. Then as we did the research, we realized pretty quick, quickly that the organization owns 50% of the equation. And they can do a lot to create engagement, but ultimately it’s up to the employee to choose. So this is really written to, number one, it was written to the employee instead of the organization. It is what is my role as an employee in engaging. But then beyond that, we realized, as Tim mentioned, it, it, it really relates to every one of us. Um, it goes beyond just the work environment. Why am I checking out at home? Um, why am I swiping past relationships? Why am I not engaging in whatever that is? So, to answer your question, originally, the business environment, uh, and it’s still absolutely business oriented, but at the same time, it relates to anybody who experiences this, why am I disengaging in whatever it is. 

Matt Wride | 09:21 

So you talk about this meeting in 2020 in Kansas City, and hopefully there was some barbecue involved, but as you’re sitting down, what <laugh> what specifically drew you to this topic? And, and maybe that’s Tracy and his love of, of psychology and all things, maybe that’s it, but help, help fill in the gaps for us. Why, why, what what was drawing you to, to even have this conversation? 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 09:46 

Yeah, I’ll, I’ll start that one, because this was really a pain point that I saw in organizations. And what really flipped the switch for me was sitting down with the CEO of a, of one of the, actually one of the 10 best companies to work for, made the 10 best list, and had been on that list for a number of years. And as we are having the chance to talk, he said, you know, we’re doing everything we can as an organization to create an environment in which people can choose to engage. But ultimately it’s up to the employee to choose, to engage. And that really hit me. I’d spent many, many years really focusing on what is the organization’s role and working on that 50%, but then I really realized at that time, but the organization can till the soil, they can plant the seeds. Ultimately, it’s up to the employee to choose, to engage. So how is it we make that happen? How is how is it, we, we, we bring the employees part of the equation into that? And that’s what really struck me. And having the opportunity to work with Tim is always wonderful because he sees the different side of this. He sees the, the general populace and said, but this isn’t just about engaging in the workplace. This is about engaging outside of the workplace as well. So it has lots of different applications. 

Matt Wride | 10:55 

Yeah. Tim, you’ve written about everything as we noted in your bio. Yeah. Why, why is this now also on, on your notch as a notch on the belt? Go ahead. Some 

Tim Vandehey | 11:04 

Of it, some of it was, I mean, some of it was my, the, the world I’m immersed in every day is the world of books and writing, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so that, you know, the, the concept of not finishing what you start is endemic to the world of writing. I mean, you, you know, the, there are a a thousand amateurs for every professional. That’s why there are writers groups and things like that all over the country. And, you know, if you talk to any, any writer, professional or otherwise, you’re gonna find, um, that they all have a cornucopia of unfinished projects. Now, some of those are people who’ve started projects, their, their first book, their first novel or something, and never finished them. So I, I was already immersed in that, um, mindset of knowing that there were, there’s a whole army of, of writers in the, in the world who have, have hit this frustrating wall of not being able to finish things. 

Tim Vandehey | 11:54 

Um, embodied, no, no better embodiment of that than national novel writing Month with, for which for people who don’t know, is an event that goes on every November, where about a quarter of a million, um, deranged writers get together and try to write a 50,000 word manuscript in 30 days. Quality not being an issue, it’s about finishing something. But, um, there were kind of that, so that was, that was part of it when I realized, you know, and, and, and Tracy and I realized that, um, this was a bigger story. This was about not finishing what we start about, whether that’s engagement with family or personal projects, things like that. One of the other things that really drew me to it was the, when I started digging into the research on the specific phenomenon, there isn’t any, there is no, there’s research on procrastination, but that’s not the same thing as not finishing, you know, as, as the, the phenomenon in particular is people setting goals, um, repeatedly attempting those goals and quitting partway. 

Matt Wride | 12:53 

Okay, we’re gonna dive into that. So let me ask you this. If 

Tim Vandehey | 12:57 

Research, so that’s why we got into it. 

Matt Wride | 12:59 

If swipe, if, if swipe describes a type of behavior, what’s the antithesis to that? Meaning, what is it that we’re going to do to combat swipe the swiping reflex? 

Tim Vandehey | 13:13 

Tracy? Is that you or me? 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 13:15 

Yeah. Let’s, let’s, let’s both tackle that one, because I think there are two different sides of this. One is, when we look at it from an organizational perspective, um, the antithesis of the swipe is engagement. I am engaged in what I’m doing. So what causes that to happen? Well, um, we’ve done lots of research. We analyzed 50 million employee survey responses, um, got a lot of good information, and we, we realized that they fit under this acronym magic, um, M-A-G-I-C. The idea here is that when we find meaning, so that’s the m when we find meaning in what’s in front of us, we will engage in what we do. When we find, when we have autonomy, we have the freedom to choose how we perform our at our best. We will engage when we, the G is growth, that is we’re, we’re being better today, we have stretched opportunities to grow, et cetera. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 14:03 

And the I is impact, I’m seeing results from my efforts. And then C is connection. I feel like I, I connected to the company, connected to the mission, connected to the people around me. Now, what’s interesting is that that doesn’t just apply to organizations that applies outside. So that applies to my family when I find meaning in that, et cetera. Um, when I find that I’m growing as an individual in my family, uh, I, I will engage in that. But it certainly applies to the workplace. And what we found was that when individuals have those five elements, they will engage. Now, again, going back to the equation of 50 50 50, the organization has the responsibility to create the environment when, when someone can find meaning, but the organization can’t go to an individual and say, you will have meaning today at two o’clock, and here’s how you’ll find meaning. So the idea is that we look at both pieces of this. The organization can set and plant the soil, right? Can plant the seeds in the soil, but the individual has to, uh, choose to engage. So in answer to your question, the antithesis of this is how do we as individuals reengage and find those five elements in whatever it is in front of us, and how do we as an organization create that so that those individuals can choose to engage in their performance? 

Tim Vandehey | 15:13 

Right. 

Matt Wride | 15:14 

Right. 

Tim Vandehey | 15:15 

And Matt, you know, beyond the organization, I think the other, the, the other part of the antithesis, the opposite number of swiping, which is the term we came up with for this, this, you know, reflexive hitting the panic button and disengaging from whatever it is that is important is the other part of it is really about awareness. It’s about understanding, creating the awareness that this is actually a predictable process, that technology conditioning, and some, to some degree, the ease of having lots of other options has created sort of a resilience deficit, an ambiguity deficit among people, both on the job and otherwise, uh, to say, well, you know, as soon as I hit difficulty, well there are lots of other options, so I’m gonna hit the eject button and swipe, disengage and go onto something else. So the awareness that that is a predictable process, the awareness that it’s not just something that happens that’s just about me, whether I’m an, whether I’m talking about on the job or engaging with personal goals, or engaging with my children or my spouse, um, it’s a predictable process that has markers. It has 

Matt Wride | 16:22 

Well, and 

Tim Vandehey | 16:23 

Expectations. Just to understanding that that is a predictable process that can be understood is part of the, uh, is, is part of the factor that helps both, it helps employees, uh, choose to, to engage because they understand that, okay, this is something I can, I can both see coming and to some degree control, as long as I’m prepared to understand when that emotion hits. And also people dealing with goals or dealing with personal relationships, the fact that it’s all, that it’s comprehensible. It’s not just a random thing. There are predictable markers. Um, that’s a huge part of, of, uh, people, um, getting, getting to the point where they don’t, where they don’t swipe past what’s important to them. 

Matt Wride | 17:07 

Right. So knowledge is power and having some sense of what’s happening, uh, markers, as you said, what a great word to, to, to let you know that you’re entering the world of possible swipes or swiping, knowing that you can sort of then choose deliberately to make a different choice, a conscious choice. So by bringing something out of the unconscious and making it conscious gives us the ability to react more appropriately. 

Tim Vandehey | 17:31 

That’s exactly right. 

Matt Wride | 17:33 

That’s awesome. Awesome. Alright, so we’re gonna dive in us with some more questions. Um, I’ll take a break and see if we have anything in the chat, Eric, Kaylee, anything in the chat that’s popped up since we’ve been talking? No, I’m not seeing anything. Okay. So, um, you make a taxonomy of swipes in the book. You create these sort of categories, these high or archetypes, if you will. Do you wanna mention a few of them? And, uh, and kind of what was the thought process behind sort of dividing, swipe the, the, the swiping reflex into archetypes? 

Tim Vandehey | 18:11 

Well, part of it was just, frankly, to have a little bit of fun with the, with the whole thing. You can tell some of the, some of the names. So we wanted to have a little bit of fun with the whole thing. But also the taxonomy is really about the motivations behind, uh, the emotion, I should say, behind why people swipe. Swiping is driven by emotion, is driven by, um, by self-doubt, by fear, by embarrassment, by boredom, by disillusionment. Um, you know, some emotion pops up and emotions by their gray nature can’t be controlled. And, you know, we, we swipe, we quit, uh, do what we’re, what we’re, uh, engaged in because of that emotion. We do, we don’t wanna deal with it. It’s unpleasant. We, we go, we change our situation so that emotion is no longer an issue. Um, so some of the ones I came up with, you know, in, in initially developing this chapter and then Tracy kind of help refine them, were things like what I call the intimidation swipe. 

Tim Vandehey | 19:07 

So the intimidation swipe, um, is very common. It’s probably the most common kind, which is especially on the job, which is I’m facing something that I think is, uh, beyond my capacity. And I’ve, I can’t, I can’t do that. I, I, that’s too much for me. Uh, it’s probably not, but again, it’s, it’s a, it’s a fear or self-doubt, uh, swipe where we just feel like we are not equal to the task. Um, I’ll go through a couple of these. I won’t go through all of them. There’s the, what I, what we call the greener grass swipe, which is, uh, basically there’s something better over there. Again, this relates a lot to, uh, the, to uh, the, the job, especially the great resignation, which is, you know, um, I don’t have to say in this position, there’s a, there’s a better gig over there. I’m gonna go, I’m gonna, uh, ditch this one and go over there. 

Tim Vandehey | 19:53 

Most likely because of the, the, uh, grand unified theory of wherever you go, there you are, you’re probably gonna take the same issues to the new job that you had at the old one. But nobody thinks about that at the time. Um, the, one of the ones that I, that I encounter with writers a lot was what I call the Inspector Jave Swipe, which if, you know, um, the miserable, you know, is Jave is the, the cop, you know, who pursues Jean Val Jean throughout the book, um, and the musical, if you’ve seen the musical. But that’s about, um, fear of finishing. So people, I’ve, I’ve run into this with a lot of, not just writers, a lot of creative artists, a lot of creative people, um, working on something. They become defined by the work. I’ve known writers who are working on a book for 10 years, and part of their identity becomes, I’m working on my book. Well, God forbid they finish, because then they actually have to show it to people. It stops being theoretical. And of course there’s the fear of, well, what if they don’t like it? So, you know, those are just three examples of, of the kinds of, um, the kinds of swipes that we, that, that, that people engage in based on the emotions that they’re feeling. 

Matt Wride | 21:00 

Interesting. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 21:01 

I wanna follow up on that just a little bit, because Tim mentioned something that’s really near and dear to my heart right now. And it’s this concept of the, the Great resignation and the Greener Grass Swipe. Uh, as we were exploring this book, we dug into a bunch of research and did some on our, on our own. Um, that what happens when people swipe out of an organization? So a swipe is a, as a reflexive choice. It’s not actually sitting down and, and analyzing and making a conscious decision. It’s a reflex. And with the great resignation, first of all, it’s been around forever and ever. This is not anything new. In fact, in the book, one of the things we talk about was a concept with the Roman Army, uh, back in 100 bc the idea that they were, they were executing some of their armies because they would become disengaged in what was going on. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 21:41 

They would fall asleep on their job. And so this has been around for a long time. The difference that we’re experiencing now is that they do have opportunities to go somewhere else. It was really difficult for a Roman soldier to go get a job with a Persian army, uh, because it’s down the street, much easier to do. Whereas today they can do that. But let me give you some statistics that we found as we were doing this. When an individual swipes out of an organization and they choose to go somewhere else, um, there’s some interesting statistics about their engagement. So let’s suppose I disengage in the organization I’m at today, and I think that the job down the street’s gonna be a better job for me. The statistics show that of those people that leave anywhere between 30 and 40% of those individuals that left the job for a better job will leave that new job within 90 days. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 22:27 

So 30%, a third of these folks will leave that job within the first 90 days. Interesting statistics. There are also some, uh, interesting HBR pieces that talked about those people’s engagement. That what happens is during the first six months of their employment, they become quite disengaged in the new organization because they don’t feel like they belong. So the irony of this is they’ve swiped from an organization because they want growth opportunities, or the grass is greener only to go somewhere else where they’re not experiencing those opportunities. Now, of course, there is that three quarters of the organization, or two thirds of the organization that does have something better. But what happens if we were to stay and to grow and to try to, to increase? So that’s when we approach it from the organizational standpoint. That’s what this book’s about. It’s how do I look at the opportunities that are in front of me? And instead of moving from those figure out, how do I benefit from this job? How do I benefit from this difficult, uh, job responsibility that they have, or this difficult life responsibility, this relationship challenge that I’m having, rather than swiping, what can I gain from this? And what allows me to hit that g in the, in the magic the growth piece or impact piece. 

Matt Wride | 23:37 

So we had a couple of, uh, questions come in through the chat. One is, what, from Theresa, what are the predictors of swiping? And a little bit of that was touched upon when you talk about these, uh, taxonomy of swipes. Anything to add on, sort of, and we, we can’t obviously cover an in-depth business book now, but anything you that comes to mind on, what are some predictors of, of the swiping reflex? 

Tim Vandehey | 24:02 

A great question. Great question. Um, they’re very, they’re individual, so they’re never the same for, for everybody. But, um, that’s actually one of the keys to preventing future swipes is looking back, um, and understanding the emotions. ’cause swipe is driven by emotion. This understanding the emotions that are, that were coming up the last time you were, um, driven to swipe, to quit something. Um, the emotions and the self-talk, because, um, those are, you know, those are fairly predictable and they’re, and they’re, they’re fairly repetitive. Um, most people when they encounter obstacles and they start to feel like they’re not getting anywhere, they’re disillusioned or they’re embarrassed, there are certain feelings that come up that surface. And there’s certain types of self-talk. We tend to be, frankly, very cruel to ourselves. We, you know, we become self-critical. We berate ourselves, we, we minimize the importance of the goal. 

Tim Vandehey | 24:58 

That was stupid. Why did I that, that, that doesn’t make any sense. Why am I investing time in that? Nobody cares, you know, that kind of thing. It’s seeing the patterns that popped up in past times when you’ve quit something that you really wanted to achieve. Because the nature of swiping is we’re swiping away from goals that if we got to the finish line are beneficial for us, whether it’s in relationships or sticking with the job, or getting in shape or finishing a creative project. Those are things that are going to benefit us if we get there. And so, la the previous times you’ve tried them and you quit, what were the emotions that you were feeling in the self-talk you were experiencing at the point where you said, I’m, I’m gonna walk away where you hit the eject button and swiped, those are the most powerful predictors. 

Matt Wride | 25:44 

Hey, Tracy, this other one, we’re gonna grab one more before I hop back in, is from Denise. It says, Hey, we’ve been using c committing resources to the magic formula, but we haven’t had much change in the engagement from our employees. What, what can we do? It’s a little bit like you talked about from your conversation previously with that CEO 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 26:06 

Love that question. So let’s break this. Let’s break down engagement, the engagement equation for just a second. So first of all, 50% of that is on the employee. The employee has to choose to engage. That’s what’s really difficult for a lot of organizations to understand is that the employee has to own part of that. Now, how does the employee own that? Well, when we break down the engagement question, the organization can do some really cool things. And the organization’s responsibility is to make sure that the, the direction is correct to make sure that they have the organization-wide things in place that will cause people not to be disengaged, right? Those are called hygiene factors, the things that don’t necessarily engage us, but, but the lack thereof caused us to dis to disengage. So the organization can do that piece of it, but typically, for example, when we run an organizational initiative like a survey or something like that, the top eight people of the organization get together in a room and they make a bunch of decisions of how do we get the organization engaged. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 26:59 

Uh, that’s great, but the fact of the matter is, is that if that were a lever of engagement, that would be less than 20% of the overall engagement equation. They can’t do lots and lots of stuff from that level. What we have found, however, is that the direct manager relationship has significant impact on the overall level of engagement of the organization. Not always up here, but it’s that one-on-one relationship that I have, in fact, it’s a concept called emotional and contagion. We, uh, we looked at some research of our own engagement studies and realized that when a manager is disengaged in his or her role, or if a manager is engaged, for example, let’s look at engaged first, employees are 217% more likely to engage. If my manager’s engaged, I am seven times more likely to leave an organization if my manager, if I don’t have a positive perception of my manager. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 27:51 

So that manager has a big piece of the equation, but the organization often ignores that. So one of the first things to answer that question is, where’s the onus for engagement? Is it at the top eight people of the organization and they run everything? Or are you expecting your managers to create an environment which will cause people to engage? And then second piece is, are we asking our employees to step up and take that 50%? Sometimes we take the blame as an organization rather than putting it back on the employee and saying, all right, what do you need in order to be engaged in this organization? And I’ll give you a hint, it’s not, um, foosball tables and break rooms, and it’s even not pay in many circumstances. Uh, and, and so we have to look at it and say, are my organizational initiatives just with eight people in hr, or does it involve the manager and the employee in this relationship as well? 

Matt Wride | 28:40 

Great, great. And it’s not, that is not an easy answer to that question. It is a long No, it’s not. It’s a long process to drive engagement and build it. Um, 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 28:50 

It, it’s the same processes that started this book, really, which is right, CEO saying, look, we’ve been working on this for five years. We’ve got a great place to work, but we still have people leaving. Um, help me. 

Tim Vandehey | 29:02 

But I think, I think you identified a bit of a pivot point there, Tracy, you know, which is a place to start, which is, you know, the, the manager, the, the manager’s role is so incredibly important except to the manager to model the awareness. It’s the self-awareness required to not swipe, to not disengage, you know, to to face difficulty and uncomfortable, you know, discomfort and uncomfortable emotions and model for the people he or she is managing to, uh, you know, of not, you know, the, the ability to get past those, those junctures, those crossroads, um, and you know, that, that have that lesson percolate down to, to the individuals that the, the manager is, is leading. 

Matt Wride | 29:45 

So, got another, another, uh, question. And, and I think this one’s really interesting, and I’m gonna paraphrase this is for ve um, the question goes like this, you know, swipe is something we do after we’ve started. Maybe we’ve engaged in something and we choose to kind of pull the rip cord and get out. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> and a little bit to your Inspector Jave, um, taxonomy is there swiping where we don’t even start. And he, and the, the, the word was so many precious and ideas and precious ideas and dreams go to one’s grave, even without making a beginning, was the statement that our, that the, the audience member made. So what, talk a little bit about swipe at that really precognition level, right? Like even just getting, going on on our dreams and our hopes. Anything there? 

Tim Vandehey | 30:35 

Well, we, we, we didn’t look at that from the sense of, we didn’t look at that as closely as the other, the other aspects of swiping because it didn’t really fit into the organizational narrative because mm-hmm. <affirmative> obviously you can’t, you can’t really, um, engage someone who hasn’t started their job, 

Matt Wride | 30:53 

Right? 

Tim Vandehey | 30:54 

But it is a, it is a valid question in terms of starting something. I mean, we’ve, you know, primarily looked at, at getting, because the phenomenon we found is just is, is more, is more frustrating for people, was making, getting part of the way to the finish line, okay? Uh, that that’s what we found was the source of greater pain. The not the issue of not starting is absolutely valid. Um, the mechanisms behind that tend to be a little bit, uh, a little bit different in, in terms of they can, they can be, uh, much more practical issues like time and, um, personal responsibilities and things like that. When you start getting into the emotional side of why we don’t even get started, um, those are very common and very, or are very similar, you know, there’s, there’s self-doubt, um, frequently much stronger sense of self-doubt in the sense that what, you know, I’m not even gonna start this because I don’t even have the, the, the wherewithal to do it. 

Tim Vandehey | 31:48 

What I, what what we found was a bigger, um, the, probably the biggest factor in not starting at all, um, which we didn’t, you know, to be fair, we didn’t look into as deeply, um, was a matter of motivation. Why is this important? Is, is this important enough to, to kick off in the first place? Um, expectations come into play much more when people are, are, are already en engaged in the activity, or engaged in the goal or engaged in the job. If the motivation isn’t strong enough. If it’s not usually, if it’s not an intrinsic motivation, extrinsic motivations are things like fomo, you know, fear of missing out, um, expectations of family and friends, um, envy, uh, just feeling like I should be doing this at my age, or I should be doing this because other people I know are doing it. Those, those extrinsic motivations don’t really get us moving if there’s any friction at all. And there’s always friction because there are always issues of time or cost or things like that. The motivations need to be intrinsic, um, to help us get started. That’s not the only solution, the only answer to that question, but it’s one of the big ones, is, is the motivation intrinsic? Is it genuine? And is it strong enough to move us off the starting line? 

Matt Wride | 33:05 

Okay. Alright. Um, talk to me a little bit about how, what’s, what does this, if we fall into this pattern of constantly swiping right and letting ourselves sort of just avoid discomfort and move on to, I think Tracy talks about move on to something, hoping that something’s better around the corner. What is the, what are some of the health benefits or costs? Not just lack of productivity in the workplace or the typical things, but what happens to us as people, as humans on our mental health when we, when we’re too quick to swipe? 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 33:44 

Let’s look, first of all, from an organization perspective, and I’ll give you some, some real detail from the research that we’ve done. Uh, it’s, it’s clear to see why it’s important for the organization that their employees are en engaged. We don’t have to fight that battle anymore. Uh, worked in HR all my life, and it used to be 10 years ago that we had to fight the battle to say why engagement’s important. We don’t have to fight that battle anymore. We get that, we’re past that, so we understand why it’s important to the organization, but why the employee? So let’s look organizationally first, and then we’ll look at individually in just a second. So, um, the organization finds that their employees are much more productive when they’re engaged, the less sick days, all this kind of stuff. But I as an employee, often think, well, why should I be engaged in something, uh, that’s not that important to me? 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 34:27 

Well, there are some reasons. Number one is that we found really clearly in the research that if I’m disengaged at work, I’m probably disengaged at home as well. Um, very, very high correlation overall. So that doesn’t say that the work environment’s the problem. The problem is me and I need to figure out me why I’m disengaged. There is some cause and effect. If I’m miserable for nine hours of the day and go home, I’m probably gonna be miserable. But part of that also includes me as an individual. So there’s one benefit is that I will engage more at home. Second piece is, there’s some pretty interesting research that’s been done, and, uh, there are a couple of books that I would would recommend. One of them is The Happiness Advantage by Sean Aker. It’s, it’s really a great book, but he talks about, um, people that are engaged in their work or whatever that is, tend to be more happy, happy people are more productive. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 35:12 

And it’s very, very cyclical the way that that works. So there’s that piece that’s involved as well. Um, people who are engaged in the work tend to be more promotable. They, there’s some interesting research also that says also clearly that people who are engaged in the work, those who are engaged, tend to receive promotions. They receive higher compensation, in fact, about 21% more for the very engaged versus disengaged. And you may say, is there a correlation or causation there? I don’t know. But there’s certainly correlation. So there are lots of reasons why I should be engaged. When we look at it from a personal perspective, and this is partly what the book is about, also is, but part of the reason why I need to engage is because I’m not finishing what I start and I’m not mastering what I intend to master. Lots of research on whether or not it takes the 10,000 hours to master the violin or the piano, or writing a book or whatever. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 36:02 

It’s controversial, but we know that we need to practice. So what happens is when we’re swipers, we continue to swipe from one job to the next, or one responsibility to another responsibility. The only thing that we really master is the swipe. We don’t become masters of the violin or masters, uh, uh, a master surgeon. Uh, we don’t become masters of whatever that is a, a great athlete. We instead only become masters of swiping. That’s what’s ingrained in, in fact, the neuroscience tells us that it actually reshapes our brain to the point where we become, um, physiologically conditioned to swipe. 

Tim Vandehey | 36:38 

Yeah, and you know, Matt, the, uh, from a, from a a, a downstream mental health perspective, the most common emotion associated with habitual swiping is regret. So, you know, in the short term where we are dodging uncomfortable emotions, um, and we might feel a sense of relief when we quit something that we feel we have too much self-doubt, or we’re embarrassed, or we’re bored, or we’re disillusioned with the experience and we say, ah, forget it. I’m, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna bother with this anymore. We might feel, feel relief temporarily because we’ve dodged that uncomfortable emotion. But what we found was almost universally after the fact, and anybody who’s quit something that they look back on later on can identify with this, we feel regret because if we’d finished, if we’d stuck with it, I, I can’t tell you how many writers I’ve talked to who have not finished a book and tried for years to write their first novel who’ve said, you know, if I, if I’d stuck with it, and if all the time I’ve spent complaining about it and all the stuff, all the time I’ve spent false starting new drafts or new books, I’d have five books done by now. 

Tim Vandehey | 37:42 

So there’s a lot of regret involved, and that regret impacts us in terms of our self-esteem. It impacts our happiness and it impacts our resilience. We don’t develop the, uh, the ability. What, uh, was it Angela Duckworth, uh, wrote called Grit? You know, the ability to get knocked down and get back up. Uh, when we continually get, you know, a face discomfort and just bail on it, our, our resilience suffers and therefore our ability to be successful in all areas of life and work 

Matt Wride | 38:16 

For sure. And I appreciate how Tracy talked about that. There’s so many more, so much benefits, not just costs associated, but when we, when we master the swipe, we get all these benefits and, uh, we’re trading short-term gains for, for long-term regret. And that is not a place I think anybody wants to be in. So I appreciate that insight, Tim, a a lot. Um, talk to us about how technology is at the center of this, of conditioning us to be more, more likely to swipe. Um, can you, can, can one of you maybe jump in and, and give us some clarity there? 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 38:56 

I’ll talk first of all about the neuroscience behind that, if that’s okay. Tim, can we, we address that, do it. So this is, this book is partially based on neuropsychology. This isn’t just based off of ideas or opinions. Um, we, we look to the neuroscience to tell us a little bit about it, but it’s happened over a period of time because of the ability to access technology very easily. Um, we’ve, we, our minds, our brains have actually been physically reshaped to be able to, to move from something very quickly. Um, you know, um, Matt and I have had some good conversations about the work by Daniel Kahneman. Uh, just an interesting individual, uh, Nobel Prize winner for economics, but he’s also a neuroscientist. He’s also a psychologist, a medical doctor. And, uh, he, he talks about two different, instead of viewing the brain as individual parts, so we don’t have the prefrontal cortex. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 39:46 

We’re looking instead of looking at that in terms of what the name of it is, let’s look at that in terms of systems. We have System one and system two. System one is that immediate reflexive impulse. You know, it’s the, it’s the thing that tells us when we look at an individual, we see a quick picture. We know that that individual’s, uh, angry and it’s based on patterns or experiences we’ve had in our lives as we’re driving down the road. Uh, system one is often taking us from one part of the destination to another part. We don’t have to stop and think about it. System one is very, very, uh, demanding. It tries to take over and tries to make decisions and, and it doesn’t take a whole lot of effort to make those decisions. The second part of the system is system two. System two. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 40:28 

It takes a lot of energy, takes a lot of true, uh, physical energy, physiological energy system. One is more deliberate, or excuse me, system two is more deliberate. It’s often lazy. It’ll let system one take over. And the thing that happens is a lot of the decisions we make are emotional decisions. And system one makes those decisions very emotional. It’s a quick, immediate reaction. And we don’t take the time to stop and actually look and weigh all the details to allow system two to kick in. System two says, yeah, you need to stop and think about this. I’ll give you a personal example. Uh, after this webinar, Matt and I are traveling to, uh, to visit a, a client that I absolutely love, worked with this client for a number of years, love the people. I love being there. Um, and I, it reminds me of when I travel internationally a lot. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 41:16 

You know, I travel take these 16 hour flights, and if you ask me how engaged I am on hour 14, I’ll tell you I hate my job right now, <laugh>, that represents about 2% of my overall job system. One is the system that says you’re disengaged in your job system. Two looks at this and says, no, 98% of what I do, I absolutely love. I I love visiting this client. I love working with these individuals. Uh, I love what happens when I get to there. So the, the difference here is that system one makes a very quick and reflexive decision. I hate my job. I need to get outta here. This relationship is awful. I need to move out of this without bringing in system two. And what system two allows us to do is stop and make a rational decision and say, yes, but 98% of this job is really awesome and I love these people and, uh, I love my family. I really want to complete that novel. I want to get in shape, I want to do whatever it is. And what’s happened with technology now is that it becomes so easy to swipe and make that reflexive move that we don’t stop and let system two kick in to make that rational decision. We don’t get to that point. So, sorry to be long-winded on that one, Tim, because you’re the expert in this area. 

Tim Vandehey | 42:28 

No, no, you’re great. No, you know, and there’s another, another big difference between system one and system two that I think relates to the tech side, very, uh, very uh, uh, importantly is that system one is rooted completely in the present. So you are limited to the perceptions of I’m on the plane, I’ve been flying for 14 hours, I hate my job because System one only cares about right now. It has, there’s no foresight or hindsight involved. You know, system two is what we look to, to predict the future and look at, uh, well, you know, this sucks right now, but once I get past this, it’s gonna be a lot better. System. One doesn’t think that way. System one is, is is I want out now. That’s the ripcord. Uh, as one of our commenters. You, uh, uh, wrote the, that’s the ripcord impulse. 

Tim Vandehey | 43:13 

And the reason that’s such a, such a danger with, related to technology in particular is because of the old, you know, the, the, the old reward, uh, circuitry, uh, in our brains, right? When we are, you know, when we are, uh, we, we’ve mostly seen it related to things like social media. People are on social media. We talk about a lot with, with, uh, teens and Gen Z and so on, um, that they’re driven to get likes and things like that. And social media because of the dopamine hit, you know, because they get the, the pleasure centers of the brain light up. When we get that little, that little surge of approval, what’s happened with the swipe is system one is perceiving that that same kind of approval, that same kind of, of quick shot of pleasure taking it from the digital world where I can swipe my, my finger and go to a different experience. 

Tim Vandehey | 44:02 

And it’s now applying that to the physical world where I’m going to forget about the future. System two is not involved here. I’m going to impulsively say, I don’t like this. I’m gonna go for something better. I’m gonna switch the experience I’ve had. I’m gonna reality switch. And we get that brief shot of pleasure, okay? Wow. I’m no longer stuck in that uncomfortable place, that uncomfortable thing I was doing. Uh, that feels great. And as I said before, only later on does, does the regret kick in. But in the moment we’re doing the same thing we do on Facebook or Twitter where’re, we’re pursuing that momentary hit of pleasurable experience at the expense of whatever good, probably a lot greater good we would be experiencing in the future if we just got past that crossroads and we’re able to keep going and keep engaging. 

Matt Wride | 44:53 

Yeah, it’s almost as if, uh, technology just keeps us swimming in system one <laugh>. 

Tim Vandehey | 44:59 

It totally does. 

Matt Wride | 45:01 

Tracy, you you shared a, you shared a quote about how much, uh, uh, college students are, are consuming social media. I can’t remember, but it’s like, it’s a lot and you’re just swiping from experience to experience in Instagram or whatever, and, and it’s just system one. You just, you’re just swimming in it. What was that? Right? 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 45:21 

You know, it, it came from as I’ve had a chance to do some teaching with master’s degree students in Germany, and I give them an assignment, uh, it’s a school assignment. That assignment is, they, they have to change something about themselves, uh, focus on something they want to improve. And, uh, I remember sitting in a room now, these, these students, uh, know two to three languages at a native level. They’re required to, most of them speak five to six languages. Just incredibly brilliant master’s degree students. And this one, this, uh, young lady stood up and she was in her late twenties, early thirties, and she said, um, she started with the example. She said, 68 days, what would happen if I could give you 68 days? How would you use those 68 days? And of course, a lot of really fun answers. I’d go on vacation, I would do all these kind of things. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 46:05 

And she said, um, just a second. Let me pick up my cell phone. And so she picked up her cell phone and said, oh, excuse me. And then she made a little swiping move and she said, now how many of us pick up our cell phone? Um, instinctively. And she said, that’s my problem. She said, those 68 days equate to about five hours a day that my cell phone tells me, because I track it, how much I spend using social media. She said, I wasted 68 days last year. And I’m sitting there flabbergasted, ’cause I’m an old guy sitting in this classroom and I can’t figure out how someone could use that for that amount of time. Really? A bright young lady. And she says, I want those 68 days back. She said, I, that 68 days, I couldn’t do what I was doing. And everyone else in the classroom was, it was if to say, yeah, I’m right there with you sister. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 46:50 

I, I get this, I’m with you. I do the same thing too. And so this is not a unique phenomenon. And she said, it didn’t intend, I didn’t intend to start with 68 days. She said, what happens is I built this habit that I wake up in the morning, first thing I do is check my cell phone, um, check for messages, and I see an Instagram post. And I spend a minute on that, and then I go to the next one and the next one. And by the time it’s time to go to school, I stop. Then I come home and built that same habit. We don’t intend to swipe. That’s the thing. Swiping is never intentional. Swiping is reflexive. And the more we swipe, the more it tends to happen. I don’t intend to leave my job today, but I may check out slightly from this piece or the next piece and add it on and add it on. And by the time I’m done, that’s 68 days. And that’s pretty common. 

Matt Wride | 47:38 

There was a, you know, a lot of our audience members are here because they are organizationally minded. Yeah. And a question came up from Theresa. So as an employer, how do I help my employees slow down or turn around the swipe process? Any thoughts that you might offer? 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 47:58 

I’ll talk about it just a little bit. And then if Tim has some wisdom here, ’cause this is really the crux of the question. It’s a tough one, by the way. I’ve loved the questions and comments that have come in. Thank you for, I wish I were in a room right here with, just to be able to have that conversation with all of you. First of all, understand that you’re facing a difficult battle, and we have to realize that, um, that’s, that’s tough Right now. You have a strike against you in the organization and that we’re facing this battle that people are becoming conditioned to swipe. We’re s we’re, we’re taking the easy way out, and it’s easy for us to do that. The great resignation showed that it was easy. If I didn’t like what I was doing to go down the street, now we’re going to come to a point where that’s not the case again and it’ll switch back. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 48:40 

And so we don’t have to fight that battle quite as much as we used to. Um, there are some answers to that that are more difficult, and that means that first of all, it’s a, it’s a long-term solution. I’m gonna go back to that acronym magic. The idea that meaning, for example, is not built overnight. Meaning is the manager sitting down with the individual and understanding what really is meaning for you and what creates these meaningful experiences and how do we explore those and how do we associate what you do to something that’s meaningful? That’s not something that happens in one brief conversation by the water cooler. And, and the managers have a big role to play in that, teaching our managers to sit down with these individuals and have these engagement conversations. We did some research on this one and, and the vast majority of managers never actually have an engagement conversation with their teams. What causes you to engage? What causes you to disengage? That would be one start I would certainly do. Mm-Hmm. Um, I would also say at the organizational level, understand that even though you can do certain things, um, the managers can certainly have a lot of impact. So I wish I had an easy answer to that question. 

Matt Wride | 49:51 

You know, I think it goes back to what Tim said early, is that the number one thing this book does is help us become aware. Yeah. So as, as employers, if we can teach awareness and help walk and help sort of be, um, mentors and, and evangelists, if you will, of this process of slowing down and understanding what, what, why we swipe, that’s gonna be helpful. Tim, I think I, I I interrupted you. Go ahead. 

Tim Vandehey | 50:18 

No, it’s okay. Um, there, there, there’s a, there’s another piece to this that I think, again, it’s, and it’s, it’s not an easy question as pointed out. It’s a tough, it’s a tough issue. There’s also the, the, the aspect of helping each employee, um, understand the predictability of this process. Yeah. And, and understand there’s a, there’s a, a mechanism we used called the hamster wheel, and that’s an old metaphor, but we used it because it is an old metaphor. People understand what it means. It’s to, you know, to run and get nowhere. And, um, you know, there the, the two, the two most important factors behind the swiper motivation, which I mentioned before, and expectations. What’s your motivation for doing what you’re doing? What are your expectations both for your experience and for the results you’re going to get? So helping employees understand those two factors is a piece of this. 

Tim Vandehey | 51:09 

But even more important, I think, is understanding the process of this, of this, the stages people go through on this, on this wheel, there’s the downhill, which is when things are fun, usually at the beginning and things are easy and seem effortless, then you hit this vertex where suddenly you start going uphill. That’s who knows where that is in a job. It’s for someone, it might be a month, and for someone it might be a few years in. Um, but it’s when things are usually no longer novel and you realize, oh, this is just flat out work. This is hard. Uh, if your expectations are faulty at that point, you’re, you’re in trouble. Um, but beyond those points, beyond that downhill, uphill, uh, stage is what we call the crossroads. And that is really where people face the decision. And if they feel like they’re in control, if they feel like they understand that, they understand the emotions, they understand the process, they understand that this is predictable, you can choose. 

Tim Vandehey | 52:04 

And there’s a stage we call recognize and reflect. Um, and a lot of this is toward the end of the book, but the recogniz and reflect piece is absolutely crucial. And I think that’s where le, where managers and organization leaders can really help their people is at that stage, you have the power to say, okay, if I choose to, if, if, if I take away the take system one out of the picture, uh, and put system two in charge, and I, I, I’ve decided I’m, I’m able to make a conscious decision whether or not I listen to this fear or this doubt, or this <inaudible> or whatever is causing this, causing me to feel like I need to disengage and look at what can happen if I stick with this, if I push past these emotions, realize that they’re very likely illusory, they’re very likely not as real as I think they are. 

Tim Vandehey | 52:53 

Um, then what, what, what, what awaits me if I choose the right path as opposed to the left, the left being disengagement and, and maybe quitting or staying around and just doing the quiet, what’s called, what they call quiet quitting. Um, what’s, what’s, what waits for me if I keep going, if I stick with this? And that is an incredibly empowering state of mind to be in, um, as a musician. I did that sometime ago because as, as you mentioned that I’m a jazz singer. I’m a, I’m a terrible sight reader. I memorized music like nobody <inaudible> site readers. And I was terribly intimidated. This was just a few years ago, and I remember a moment when I thought, well, I could quit because I was so, I had so much anxiety about my poor sight reading, and I remember thinking, no, there’s something good on the other side of this. 

Tim Vandehey | 53:44 

This is gonna help me grow. I’m gonna stick with this. I’m gonna push past the anxiety. I made a conscious decision not to swipe, even though my anxiety was screaming at me to do so. And of course it came out fine. People were very understanding. I blew them away. When it come to memo, it came to memorizing things. I was the first person to have all the music memorized. And the point was, I, I made a conscious decision by looking at what lay ahead for me. If I chose not to swipe. And I knew that it was growth. I knew that it was, it was the fellowship of my fellow musicians, and it was, um, you know, growing as growing as an artist. So I think managers can lead their people through that process, um, and help them understand, uh, you know, what lies ahead if they choose not to swipe. That’s an incredibly important part of this. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 54:33 

Matt, you and I wrote, wrote a book about expectation alignment and expectation alignment disorder. One of the things that organizations can do and employees can do is help align expectations. So they know there is a point where you’ll be traveling for 13 hours. I want you to remember that and set those expectations. 

Tim Vandehey | 54:49 

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yep. 

Matt Wride | 54:51 

Gentlemen, we are, I can’t believe it’s gone this fast. It’s been such an engaging conversation. Thank you to everybody in the chat. It’s been wonderful to see your questions. I’m sorry we couldn’t get to everybody, and that wasn’t on purpose. We just sort of were in the flow. Um, we, we sincerely appreciate you coming on board, and I thought I’d just take these last few minutes and see if there’s anything you want to share by way of kind of closing or, um, any kind of final thoughts you want to wanna share with the audience here. 

Tim Vandehey | 55:23 

Tracy, why don’t you go ahead. 

Dr. Tracy Maylett | 55:25 

Yeah. First thing is, uh, we’d love to have you, you connect with us on LinkedIn, uh, Tracy Maillet, uh, M-A-Y-L-E-T-T. But the thing I wanna leave with is this, that is that the, the swipe applies organizationally and in individually. You started by asking the question, who is this written to? It’s written to the organization, but it’s written to us as individuals as well. Swipe leaves us feeling, uh, lesser. It leaves us feeling regret in our lives, and ultimately we don’t accomplish what we set out to accomplish. The real trick here is acknowledging and understanding when we’re about to swipe. I’ve started using that in my own vernacular. Oh, this is a swipe and I recognize that and I can change my behavior immediately. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> because I recognize this isn’t a choice. This is something I’ve been reconditioned to do and this is a swipe. And I think that’s the greatest piece that I learned as we are writing this book. 

Matt Wride | 56:16 

Awesome. Tim. 

Tim Vandehey | 56:18 

My last piece to add is, and Tracy and I just talked about this yesterday, um, there is a huge unexplored organizational and business piece to this that we are going to start exploring this summer, I think. Um, and we will be producing ideas and content and who knows, maybe another book at some point, um, about specifically how this mechanism, this psychology, this neurology, all of this relates exclusively to the organization. So follow us, stay tuned for that. Um, we’re gonna be figuring out, figuring it out as we go. There’s a huge area to explore. Some of what we have no way to predict, uh, but it’s gonna be fascinating. So, um, if you’re interested in that, stick around. Make sure you follow us, you know, uh, on LinkedIn especially, uh, or just, you know, you’ll be hearing about it from decision wise, but we’ll be working on that probably during the starting in the summer. 

Matt Wride | 57:12 

That’s good to hear. Many thanks again. Thank you to Tim and Tracy. Uh, decision wise, uh, you can find out more information about us@decisionwise.com. We are an employee experience listening firm. We help you listen to your employees and as such, uh, you get to see whether swipe the re swipe reflex is, uh, hurting you or what you can, or where pockets might be, where you can step in and train those, those leaders with Tim and Tracy’s help. Thank you everybody, and if you need any further information, reach us at info@decisionwise.com. Thank you. Thanks. So thanks 

Tim Vandehey | 57:48 

Matt. Thanks Matt.