Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2023
Time: 1:00pm Eastern / 10:00 am Pacific
Presenters: Dave Long, Chief Operating Officer; Matthew Wride, President
In this webinar, our expert speakers will teach you all things employee motivation. Gain practical strategies and actionable insights to create a motivated and high-performing workforce. We discuss the science behind motivation, how to overcome barriers, and explore leadership approaches to motivation.
Transcript
David Long | 00:00
My name is David Long. Um, I’m one of the pre presenters today. I’m joined with, I’m joined by Matt Wride, who’s the president here at Decision Wise. And we are excited to talk you about this topic. Um, just housekeeping upfront, just so everybody knows, uh, we will be, and I’ll, I’ll probably remind you of this at the end of the webinar as well. Uh, we will be, uh, sending out credit for HRCI and SHM, um, at the end of this webinar. We’ll send it out by email just so you have that code so you can get the credit for that. Um, we, uh, today are, are happy to talk about employee motivation. Uh, some of the things that we will be covering in our, as part of our presentation today. We want to give a little bit of a background, um, uh, in employee motivation and motivation in general.
David Long | 00:47
So we’ll talk about some of the theories related to motivation, uh, that, uh, that we’ve, uh, come across, uh, historically and, and, uh, as we, uh, uh, decision-wise, measured employee motivation and engagement over the many years. We’ll talk about some of that as well. Um, some of what we’ll focus on today is intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. We’re gonna talk about pay as a motivator. Uh, something that I think is, is a common thing, uh, for those of you who are in hr, you’re familiar with the conversation with managers and leaders about, Hey, well, let’s just pay ’em more. They’ll be happy if we pay ’em more. That sort of thing. We’ll talk about that, where that’s true, where that’s not true, where it can be used and where it can’t be used today. Uh, but really want to focus, uh, the second half of our presentation on tapping into intrinsic motivation, what you can do as an organization, how you can align your organization in order to tap into intrinsic motivation of your employees.
David Long | 01:43
And then, uh, the impact that certain stakeholders in the organization have on employee motivation, some of the things that they can do. And specifically we’ll talk about the impact that that managers or direct leaders can ha have on motivation of employees and, and what the best way or the best tactics for them in order to do that, um, uh, in order to, to, to get the most out of employees. So, that’s the agenda for today. Uh, we’re gonna start here, um, by talking about, uh, some of the, a little bit of the intersection between moti motivation and engagement. I, I do wanna say this upfront. Those of you who are joining the call may know decision-wise as an organization that focuses heavily on the employee experience. And so that’s been our, uh, that’s the lens through which we look at just about everything. And so, d when I work with clients and, and I’m the Chief Operating officer here at decision wise, but, but more of my time at decision wise has been spent as a consultant and a senior consultant with many organizations across many different industries measuring employee experience. And we’ll talk about how employee experience kind of folds into this discussion and how employee engagement, specifically as we measure employee experience, we focus specifically on how do we drive employee engagement. We’ll talk about that a little bit today. Uh, we are, and we’ll talk a little bit about the difference between what’s motivation and and engagement. They’re obviously very closely aligned, but we’ll talk about that. But Matt, uh, maybe you can give a little introduction as well here.
Matt Wride | 03:17
Yeah. So I wanna visit with you a little bit about motivation as a general discipline in psychology and social psychology. And we’re, we’re concerned with motivators. What are, what are things that create conditions that drive action? And it’s persistent? And the, and, and, we’ll, we’ll define moti motivation here shortly. We wanna talk about the employee’s motivation. What, what it, what is it about a particular circumstance and environment that that motivates an employee? And then we want to talk about a special subset of motivation, which is employee engagement, which is, um, a state as we’ll as we’ll discuss where pe, where they’re invested, giving their discretionary effort, and it’s really moving the organization and the individual forward. So that’s kind of what we’re gonna do, motivators then motivation itself and into engagement. So, and, and what I want to just cover are some of the basic theories of motivation, particularly motivation at work.
Matt Wride | 04:16
And there’s a slide, this next slide just asked that question. And, um, what I wanna define first is this, in, in psychology, motivation concerns the conditions responsible for variations in intensity, persistence, quality, and direction of ongoing behavior. Now, you can be motivated to compete, uh, in athletics. You can be motivated to, uh, um, create, uh, creative works and pieces of art. Uh, again, we’re focused as this next slide will show on the question of motivation at work. Um, and that’s a unique environment. We spend a lot of time at work. We spend arguably at least one third, uh, of our waking hours at work, and most likely more. Um, and we, some of the most meaningful and deep relations we form are with colleagues and, and those that we spend a lot of time with. So it’s interesting to, to think about motivation in the context of work.
Matt Wride | 05:18
Well, let’s jump in a little bit to some of the theories that have been around, um, motivation at work started in this kind of a setting. Now I’ve got a modern factory here, but it started in the factory setting. That’s, they, they were trying to figure out how do we motivate employees to sort of be really, um, labor, input labor that was needed in order to drive a factory forward, and how do you keep them energized, um, uh, focused on the job at hand. And so that was the beginning of psychologists look at motivation in the workplace, was in this factory setting. And there’s a, a fun, uh, story here on the next slide about kittens, kittens and, and knitting mills. So Hugo Westenberg, uh, one of the early pioneering IO psychologists noted a problem inside of knitting mills. And in knitting mills, the workers off, they worked six days a week, 12 hour shifts.
Matt Wride | 06:19
So attention and focus was paramount. And the reason for that was that they were responsible for loading the spools into the machines. So the, the workers provided it, provided an input, and that was keeping the spools fed and also watching the machines to make sure that they were functioning properly, to keep their energy and their focus up. He suggested letting kittens roam the floor of the factory, playing with the yarn and the strings that fell <laugh>, and that that would, that would have a positive effect on the workers. And it did, it actually, uh, created measurable results where employees were more alert and, and they didn’t have as much downtime because spools ran out and weren’t immediately filled, which is what the goal was. So, kind of a fun, uh, example about motivation, um, at work. So, uh, and, and
David Long | 07:16
Matt, as I understand that, that was an attempt at a morale boost. Uh, yeah. Hey, we get to see cute kittens. Yeah,
Matt Wride | 07:21
Right? Morale, morale as well as just something to keep one’s attention because there are no phones back then. So we’re gonna just look at cute kittens running around on the floor.
David Long | 07:32
I think we need to bring that back <laugh>, um, a little bit, just bringing kittens into the office. What they didn’t tell factory workers is that they brought the cats in to deal with the rat problem there. I’m sure that’s,
Matt Wride | 07:43
There was probably, that’s,
David Long | 07:44
They brought the cats in
Matt Wride | 07:46
Probably a side benefit that the, the, the factory was free of Ermin too. Yeah. In a way it had never been, but Sure. <laugh>.
David Long | 07:53
Yeah. I guess you had to screen employees one of your, do you have any cat allergies? Would be one of the things you’d ask them on the way into the, I
Matt Wride | 08:00
Don’t, I don’t think that’s how it worked in the, in the early 19 hundreds. I don’t, I don’t think there was such a thing as employee screening. I don’t think anybody knew about allergy allergies, so,
David Long | 08:11
Well, they, they had lots of Claritin back in those days. I know that. Right.
Matt Wride | 08:14
But that’s right. They, they did great. Okay. Let’s jump into some of the theories of motivation. So we’re gonna start with some of the, the, probably the, the classic paradigm is person, as a machine, person as a scientist. So psychologists say we can view people as essentially kind of like a robot, and they are impacted by their, they have internal needs and they’re pulled by environmental stimuli, but they have sort of reflexive responses. And, uh, a leader’s job is to sort of figure out what are these needs and drives and meet them. And then you can kind of condition, if you will, employees to give you what you need. So it’s, it, I don’t know if I like that view, but that was, uh, that was what it was viewed at for a long time. And then there came a, a, a pushback and said, look, people are not automatons.
Matt Wride | 09:08
They have, they seek to gather knowledge and understand their environment, and they’re intentional in how they react, and they have voluntary responses, and they develop goals and action plans. And so as leaders, we have to partner with the person. We have to view them as, and I don’t know why they chose the word scientist, but we have to view them as intentional. And that’s the new word we use in the, in the, it seems to be used in the, um, uh, uh, literature today, is that people are intentional. They’re not just reflexive in how they respond. Um, couple of other theories that we just want to touch upon. Let’s, let’s go to the next slide.
David Long | 09:45
Well, let me, let me just say on this one, it feels like the person is machine kind of would, would, would lead to sort of the, the previous kind of carrot and stick way of, of like, either you do it by the carrot or you do it by the stick, but that’s how you manage people in the, in, in, in kind of, I would say many years ago, that was sort of the theory. And when we’re looking at person as a scientist, we’re looking at, well, there’s probably more that we have to do. And we start to acknowledge that they have a choice in what they’re doing. And so we’re gonna talk a little bit more as we get into this presentation about the choice of individuals that work in your organization. And they can choose what they’re gonna do. They can choose how much they’re gonna be the, the level that they’re going to apply. And obviously, motivation plays a big role in what choice they make. But, uh, but that’s something that this is an important grounding on how we now view people over the last, what, what do you think 50 years or so versus how we maybe viewed them 50 years ago? It’s an important thing to look at them as, as as individual agents that are able to choose and able to, to mark their own path and, and who wants to build their own path as well.
Matt Wride | 10:56
Yeah. In person as a machine is, when we viewed, we viewed people as, as labor. We just needed their energy, we needed their output. And as Peter Drucker has shown the rise of the knowledge worker, the, the, the person that is able to contribute and create and design great products and everything that’s part of our modern economy. The old, the old model just doesn’t work. Um, one thing I liked your, your point is choice, which is going to lead us to spend a lot of time about the corollary, which is an invitation, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you have to choose between something. And that’s what we’re gonna set up needs and drives. Just quickly. Needs are internal. Motivat is an internal motivation as thought to be inborn, universally present. Um, and a drive are higher order things that we get to as needs are met. Um, they’re, they’re activated.
Matt Wride | 11:46
And, and you remember Maslow’s levels, and I didn’t include sort of the, the classic triangle, uh, graphic that you see, but you start with physiological needs, then security, then love and social needs esteem, and finally self-actualization. And so, so this is still a really applicable framework and is really accessible for new managers as you as, as those on this call that they work with, those that are taking a step to leadership. Massel’s levels is probably goal, is a, is is just a, a really great model to help them understand person as a scientist and to talk about these notions of needs and drives, and that we have to unlock both. And in a minute down the road, we’ll talk about Herzberg’s two factor, but he really talks, he kind of touches upon this and expands on this need, needs and drives, uh, theory in order to kind of create, uh, his work. And he, he does a nice job expanding. But as my point again, is Maslow’s levels is a great way to start if you’re a new manager. Dave, any thoughts?
David Long | 12:50
Yeah, I was about to say that same thing. It’s kinda like if you look at physiological needs, um, there are people in almost every organization that don’t even have that level, that level of need met. When you don’t have physiological security, those two basic needs, it’s very hard for you to expect that that person is gonna even remain with your organization. E uh, much less be motivated to work every day and, and bring their best selves into the, into their, into their work every day.
Matt Wride | 13:22
Yeah. There we all see the Buzzfeed, uh, listicles, where they talk about crazy bosses and the horror stories of, I’m gonna bill you five minutes for every, every minute you take on a bathroom break. But you’re right, Dave, there are still places where work is defining when people could even use the restroom. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that, that’s, you gotta think about that and, and understand it.
David Long | 13:45
Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>.
Matt Wride | 13:47
All right. So some other constructs we mentioned how herzberg kind of developed and, and added on to this needs and drives, uh, theory. And we’re gonna go deeper into Herzberg later because our research has really proven that he was onto something. Now he hasn’t, it hasn’t turned to be, uh, not everybody has picked up the torch from Herzberg and, and, and sort of gone with it. But we here at decision wise with our database of survey of employee survey responses, think he was onto something. And then classic reinforcement theory. This is, again, person is a machine. Um, Dave has a new puppy, he has a new goldendoodle, and he’s busy doing stimulus response and reward <laugh>. But that’s probably not what you want to do when you’re, when you’re dealing with your employees. Um, yeah,
David Long | 14:40
I can’t give my employees a scoopy snack to, to get them to do what I want. Usually. Sometimes it works, sometimes food works,
Matt Wride | 14:46
But yeah, sometimes for just a little bit. And then it quickly goes, equity theory is a really interesting one, and I just have a, I I’m not gonna spend a lot of time, but through a quick matrix into equity theory about, um, how we, this is the notion that we have an innate sense of, of what’s just, and how, how we should treat others and how we should be treated. And so if you’re an hourly paid employee and you’re underpaid, then you’re not gonna produce very much because you’re going to regulate your output to match this, this fairness concept. And if you’re paid by the piece rate, you’re just going to go as fast as you can, but you don’t feel the need to produce quality because the value isn’t there. The, the, the just sort of the fairness of the deal doesn’t exist in your mind.
Matt Wride | 15:34
And then if you’re overpaid as an hourly, you’re gonna produce a lot of, of quality output, um, because you’re going to say, I am being overpaid. I need to step it up. The, we’re not sure how long that that feeling lasts. And Dave’s gonna touch on that as you deal with pay as a motivator. And then if you’re a piece rate and you’re overpaid, you’ll, you will probably make fewer units because you’re getting paid well, but you will focus on quality as a way to make up for that overpayment. It’s kind of your, um, this, for that quid pro quo. How do I think of this as a scale? And how do I get that scale and balance between what I’m getting and what I’m giving, but keep equity theory in the back of your mind because it’s, it’s really a helpful construct when you’re thinking about, particularly about pay as a motivator.
David Long | 16:23
Yeah. And, uh, underpayment overpayment is such a tricky concept because, um, it’s in the mind of the person that is performing the work. Do they feel underpaid or do they feel overpaid, or do they feel somewhere in between that that could change just like on a dime? Um, you know, so one day somebody feels like, Hey, I feel really bad. I I got a raise recently. I feel really good. I have, I feel, you know, maybe a little overpaid. I’m putting in more work and everything like that, but one day they have a bad day, and now I’m underpaid again. Um, I, I, they don’t pay me enough money to do the work that I’m, they’re asking me to do. Um, and so this is kind of a tricky little sort of, sort of idea of underpayment versus overpayment. The other thing is, somebody may be paid equitably according to all other similar jobs in the region, area, world, et cetera, but they still may not be making enough money to meet their physiological needs, in which case it may still be a, a, a, a difficult thing for them that what, what they’re being paid could still be a, a difficult issue for them as well.
David Long | 17:29
And so this is, this is why pay becomes so tricky, but we’ll talk more about it as we get into this.
Matt Wride | 17:34
Yeah. Finally, just want to throw out, or not finally, but one of them is, is a suggested, uh, equation where performance is really motivation times ability, minus situational constraints. And so it’s, it’s, and it’s interesting because performance in a way is what we mean by employee engagement. It’s our, it’s our, uh, reward for building the right employee experience. And so, uh, it’s kind of interesting. I, I don’t know that I agree entirely with this equation, but I, I thought it was a useful idea and it would be helpful, uh, for those on the webinar to kind of think about is what are situational constraints that are reducing performance? And how much am I giving as far as motivation to keep performance high?
David Long | 18:21
It’s such a critical part of this discussion, because I think how we’re gonna spend the rest of our time is talking about, um, either situational constraints or situational enablers. Um, you know, the, the situation does matter when we’re talking about motivation, and we did call this the motivation equation. So we had to give you an equation at some point on motivation. So we definitely had, this is the name of the webinar, so here’s your, here’s your equation. But we try to make, when we do these kind of, of course, we’re not gonna put numbers into this equation when we do this. We wanna say, look, there’s a quite a bit that goes into performance, the ability of the individual and the, and the motivation of the in individual, but then there are things that can hold them back. And that’s environmental factors. That’s, uh, any number of factors that could hold them back in constraints that can limit performance. Um, but, but it’s important to kind of think about that in context of this. And I would say that there are cons, not just performance, but there’s situ situational constraints that can limit motivation. That can limit ability individually as well. So we could look at it that way too. If we wanted to really mix up this equation, we could do it a little bit. But there are situational constraints come into play in almost every situation. So we’ll talk, as I said, we’ll talk more about that.
Matt Wride | 19:40
So now is time, um, just for a bit of audience participation, get that chat flowing. What happens in your organization? What do you see as as experiments in motivation? And we’d love to just kind of highlight a few. So if you’re willing to hop on, we saw one that says, Hey, my dog works in my office. That’s gotta be a motivator, right? I think if you have animal or pet friendly, uh, policies, that could be a, a, a, something important to, to a big part of the workforce. Mm-Hmm. Amazon gift cards came up. So that’s a tangible reward, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, any others? Don’t rush out. Don’t rush out to start typing, although we, we wish you would. Summer Fridays, um,
David Long | 20:26
I I wonder if Summer Fridays, what Summer Fridays means, is that a, uh, is that, uh, time off on Friday? Is that the kind thing
Matt Wride | 20:34
That is, that’s, that’s, yeah, that’s my guess is that, uh, we see that’s what it’s, we see hybrid flexibility, which is really interesting because we get, we’re getting a lot of pushback now about, look, it’s, you may be individually productive at home, but team productivity is hard when you’re not in the office and you have casual interactions and you’re bonding, and sometimes you’re doing work while you’re both eating a handful of snacks in the break room, right? So it, we’re gonna have to figure that out, but it, it, it’s great to have some flexibility in people’s, uh, uh, lives.
David Long | 21:06
Yeah, I think that, I think that’s kind of the hybrid flexibility, and it was Rebecca who mentioned that, but the hybrid flexibility is kind of the arrangement that we see a lot of our clients going with. Um, there are some that still are, are completely remote even now, uh, three years after the pandemic started, um, that are completely remote. I think most of them are trying to strike some hybrid balance. Um, and that level of flexibility, I think can be a big motivator to people, and especially when they start thinking about is this, is this a job I want to keep long term? That flexibility is something that they will consider a lot before they go on and take something that’s less flexible. The less, uh, physical opportunities for advancement is, is another one that comes up here. Sorry, go ahead, Matt.
Matt Wride | 21:50
Well, I was gonna say the pop culture quiz and the real time applauds shows how it doesn’t have to be a tangible reward, physical reward that we react to. Um, you know, my daughter was just participating in a summer camp, and they, they did an experiment where, um, they just note that each person was assigned a, a, a a person at camp, and then they were supposed to say nice things about ’em. And that was the favorite part of camp for these girls was this idea of just saying nice things about each other and, and at night gathering around a campfire and just kind of telling each other what they like about each other. So it doesn’t have to be motivators don’t have to equal dollars.
David Long | 22:31
Yeah. And we have, um, I mean, we have, uh, a number of, of, of things related to time off. I mean, there’s quite a few that have come through here in the chat about, um, paid benefits, uh, incentive to pay, things like that. We’ll talk about those things as well, because it, we cannot be blind to the idea that, that that pay is a motivator for people. We all know that. We’ve seen it, we’ve experienced it in our own lives, and so we can’t be blind to that, but we want to be careful about how we approach that. And we also want to, we also don’t want to be, um, when, when, when you’re a hammer, everything’s a nail and you decide, you know, pays my one way for, for, to motivate people. And I don’t wanna worry about the other things that can be motivators for people. We want to definitely expand our understanding of it from there. But there’s lots of good things in the chat here. I don’t think we have time to go through all of them individually. Uh, but yeah, to take some time to look through some of these ideas in the chat that people are offering for, for motivators in their organizations. It’s really great participation. Take care, everybody.
Matt Wride | 23:34
Just a few more slides, and then we’re going to, we’re gonna dive in and, and kind of change course, but just a few more things if, um, if we can just a funny story about how you need to be careful with, uh, this comes from Freakonomics and it’s where a daycare had a problem with late pickups by parents after four. So they decided to start fining or charging $3 for every late pickup. And sure enough, what happened to the pickups? They more than double the late pickups, more than doubled. And why is that? Because people suddenly felt that, well, I’m paying for a service and $3 is a lot less expensive than a babysitter, and now I feel better about being late, and so I’m going to use the quote unquote late service more than I was, because there’s now this equity component, this is where that equity theory really shines. But you can have these weird unintended consequences when it comes to, to setting up and trying to motivate people. And here they tried to do it with a, a, a, uh, well, like a fine, and it just backfired.
David Long | 24:40
It’s really interesting. Just, yeah, it’s, it’s one of those great examples of, of when we use the wrong incentive, uh, or we, we think we, we’ve got this great incentive, or in this case, it’s a punishment, and people viewed it as an incentive, almost like to say, oh, hey, this is, makes it a lot easier. I feel better about dropping my kid off. Like all I do is pay the fine, it’s $3. No big deal. Yeah.
Matt Wride | 25:00
Yeah.
David Long | 25:00
It’s really, it’s really an interesting way doing this. All of you have examples of where incentives have gone awry in your organizations. And so you, a lot of you can re uh, relate to this, but oftentimes we, we think about the outcome that we’re trying to drive, and we, we lay out an incentive with the outcome, but we don’t think about the behavior that we’re trying to, um, elicit with, with the incentive. And sometimes if we don’t care about the behavior that gets you to the outcome, then people will take whatever behavior, no matter how destructive it may be in order to get to the incentive. And so we, we, we need to think about that whenever we’re laying out incentive programs.
Matt Wride | 25:41
That’s right. Uh, a couple more slides here. Um, person is intentional. I already mentioned this. This is the new way we think about people. Their intentional means they’re sentient. I mean, of course they are, but this is the new person as a scientist. But we’re, it really, the, the language is talking personal is intentional. And so it, it focuses on things like goal setting. Um, people are, are wanting to improve. So career paths and, and learning those type of things. Let’s, let’s go to the next slide and it’ll cover that. Um, just some of the new per fear, uh, self-regulation where people are given feedback loops and they regulate themselves. And we’ve tried that even with bureaucracies, which are organizations that have no hierarchy or no structure. And people self-regulate based on, on partnering with others and finding meaning through the different teams that they’re able to serve on.
Matt Wride | 26:30
And there’s no, they love the fact that they’re not restricted in how they contribute to the organization. So these are, uh, as I said, the new frontiers and kind of motivation theory at work. Um, lastly, I just wanna show a picture of, I think it’s next, this guy don’t remember, and this, the reason this is here is for the principle that Michael Jordan always was motivated because he ha he said he hated to lose far more than he loved to win. So it’s, it’s, back to Dave’s point, sometimes we think it’s pretty formulaic and we don’t realize that, that people have, may perceive things differently. And in this case, uh, what I con who I consider to be the goat, no offense, no offense to LeBron James, um, uh, you know, it was all about not losing was the primary motivator. So, um, okay, I don’t know what’s next. Can we measure motivation? Let’s just go through this really quick, Dave, just get to the next slide. There are instruments that try to measure motivation, and one is the motivational trait questionnaire by camper and Ackerman. Um, you can look that up and understand it. I don’t think we’ve got time right now to to focus on it so we can, we can move forward with that.
David Long | 27:44
Okay. Let’s, um,
Matt Wride | 27:46
And this one we can move forward, which is just what employee engagement is. It’s that specific outcome we’re looking for. Now we’re gonna really talk about engagement. So we’ll,
David Long | 27:55
We’ll talk about that, uh, here in a second. I’ve got another slide that kind of talks about the difference between when we’re talking about motivation versus what we’re talking about when we talk about, uh, engagement. And, uh, again, I’ll, I’ll back up and just mention again, decision-wise is heavy into measuring employee engagement. And so, uh, yeah, there are ways to measure motivators, uh, for an individual. What is my personal things that lead me to be motivated? Um, and then there, there are ways for us to measure also the conditions and making the conditions right for motivation to occur within your organization. To start that conversation, I want to talk about intrinsic motivators. Um, this is the motivations that we have, and I’ll give you a list of these here in just a second. But what we’re talking about motivating employees, because we’re now flipping the conversation to the motivation at the org level, you’re looking, you’re all joining this thinking about, okay, well what are we doing within our own organization in order to make sure people are motivated?
David Long | 28:58
Well, we have to look at intrinsic motivators as kind of the main reason that somebody’s gonna give more of themselves into, into their job. And that’s the thing that’s always there for them. That’s their personal values, that’s their personal drive. That’s, that’s what do they want to do with their career? There’s all these things that, that go into. The intrinsic motivators are really critical, but we lay on top of that extrinsic motivators, and we will talk about extrinsic motivators and how they’re relevant. They are certainly relevant, they’re important. And the overlap is really what we have at work and, and the motivation that we get from our employees at work that there’s, they bring their own intrinsic motivators into the workplace. You layer on extrinsic motivators, and then the result of that is going to be what the level of effort they’re gonna put into their jobs.
David Long | 29:44
And that may not be an every day, it could be a day-to-day thing. It could be, um, a month to month thing. But, but, uh, but the end of the day, the equation will be what are they bringing as their own intrinsic motivations into the workplace? And then what are you layering on in terms of extrinsic motivations and, and in, in order to get the performance that, that ultimately you end up getting. So let’s talk about extrinsic motivators. I have a big dollar sign here, um, because a lot of what you’ll read about extrinsic motivators, it’s going to be, um, related to, to pay, and it’ll be raises, it’ll be, uh, incentive pay, it’ll be bonus programs, things like that. There are other things that are extrinsic motivators. And when you think about extre, uh, extrinsic motivators, just think about, um, what are the things that, that, uh, that are, are motivated by not just me, but by other people around me, or about the effect that it has on my image or my, me as a person to other people.
David Long | 30:48
So, um, included in extrinsic motivators would be things like external and public recognition. I don’t, that’s not something that I get, you know, monetarily, but it is something that, that mo that that moves my image forward. It moves my, my, uh, just me as a persona. It puts me out in the forefront. There are awards or prizes, um, you know, somebody who says, I want to win the championship because I want to get the trophy. They’re motivated by an extrinsic reward in that case. Whereas somebody who wants to win the championship, ’cause they just want to do it for themselves, um, because it’s the, their deepest, that would be more of an in intrinsic motivator, uh, in that situation. Promotion and career advancement. Now, this is an interesting one because there’s also the, the desire to grow and to improve. Those are all intrinsic motivators, but promotion, career advancement are extrinsic motivators.
David Long | 31:42
’cause those are the things that you as an organization can apply to an employee as a motivator. You, that’s an extrinsic motivator that you can use. Performance based incentives, we’ve talked about above and beyond benefits, and I say above and beyond benefits because I think most employees expect that they’re gonna have health insurance if they’ve taken a full-time job, they’re gonna have the opportunity to have health insurance, they’re gonna have the opportunity to have some level of PTO, they’re gonna have, you know, certain benefits are gonna be in place. And, uh, one extrinsic motivat, it’s not super motivating to me to know that I have a health plan in place. If it’s something above and beyond, um, then that might be something that would, that could motivate me. So, above and beyond benefits is really what I would call an extrinsic motivator. Uh, but we’ll talk about what, how benefits kind of fit more into a, a, a different category.
David Long | 32:32
The basic benefit package fits more into a basic, or into a a, a, yeah, a more base level category than that. Um, and then the other extrinsic motivator could just be the avoiding, avoiding something negative. Like is I just don’t want someone to show up at my desk and talk to me about this, so I’m gonna do it. Um, I don’t wanna be punished, I don’t wanna be fired. I don’t, I’ll do enough not to get fired. Uh, that’s also, uh, a way of looking at extrinsic motivation. We’re basically trying to prevent somebody else from, uh, doing something negative to me. And so I go ahead and do it. So those are extrinsic motivators. Some of it seems a little bit bleak, but I think some of it is very positive, right? So when we look at, at extrinsic motivators, I want people to make as much money as they possibly can.
David Long | 33:17
Like, that’s, I want, I want people to make, I want everybody to be rich. That’s, that’s how I feel about it. That’s just not the reality that most of us, um, as, as, uh, organizations and, and those of you who are in HR or those of you who are managers in organizations, you understand that resources are, are limited in terms of what you can do there. And so we do wanna look at other things. Um, getting back to herzberg’s two factor model. So, um, and I bring this up right after I talk about extrinsic motivators because we can see that, uh, the way that Herzberg looks at, at motivators is that they, some of these motivators are actually just hygiene factors. And you might think about them in terms of saying, the absence of these things would be d motivators. Or like, if I feel like I am not getting back to equity theory that, that Matt talked about earlier, um, if, if I don’t feel like I’m paid a fair wage compared to other people doing the job, that’s gonna be the quickest way for me to be demotivated.
David Long | 34:21
And it’s gonna be really hard for you to get even a base level of performance out of me from, from a day-to-day factor. So is pay important? It’s critical. We have to make sure that we are matching, um, at least, uh, the, uh, what, what is out there in the marketplace. If I can go get a job that pays me, I don’t know. If I’m an hourly worker and it pays me $2 an hour more somewhere else to do roughly the same job, um, and, uh, it’s gonna, until, until I feel like I’m at par with that, I, it’s gonna be very difficult for me to feel like I’m gonna give more into the job that I have, even if all the intrinsic motivators are there. Even if all the wonderful things that, that an organization can do for an employee are there, it’s hard for me to engage over the long term if I feel like my, my pay is not up to snuff.
David Long | 35:12
The same thing with, with other hygiene factors that can really lead me to be demotivated if I feel like the company’s in trouble. Um, if I feel like my job is not safe, uh, if I feel like there maybe moving on from my division, something like that, that can be a severe hindrance to motivation, working conditions if I feel like it’s not safe where I work, or if I feel like there’s, you know, if there’s, you know, a leak in my office or what, whatever it might be. I remember working with, um, I, I did a, I did a <laugh>, I did a, uh, an, an enga, what we call an engagement summit with a client. And I’m not gonna say who it was, but it was really interesting because they, I walked into the, into the conference room where we did, it’s a, and it was a manufacturing client and then a conference room atta attached to their manufacturing facility.
David Long | 36:01
And, uh, in the middle of the conference room was the big kid pool, like, like what the little kids, you know, those plastic little kid pools. And in it was, but like, just probably four inches of water in there. And, uh, I was like, what is this pool doing? And it’s dirty water in there. What’s this pool doing in here? And I look up and I see that there’s, there’s a hole in the ceiling and it’s just leaking through the drop ceiling and it’s just coming right through. And the drop sea ceiling is rotting out. And we’re sitting here in this conference room that they use frequently with their employees. And we’re talking about, um, we’re talking about all these motivators, all these higher tapping into the higher order, you know, desires of employees and trying to get them motivated. And we’re sitting in you in a facility that is leaking and there’s probably mold in the air, and there’s all these things that, that would be a safety concern and, and a big concern to employees.
David Long | 36:58
And the, the conversation very quickly turned to, well, we’ve gotta get this fixed right before we can even talk about any of these other things. And I think that they were totally right. And that’s the idea of this two factor model. Before we go on and look at all of these things that are, can be tapping into deeper, the deeper motivators of individuals, we need to take care of those hygiene factors. Uh, or else it’s gonna be very hard to, to get people to be thinking about some of these other things. Some of the motivators, and this is where Herzberg really aligns with the model that decision-wise uses for, uh, measuring employee engagement, employee experience, and ultimately how we, we would view motivation, which is we are looking for, um, we, we are looking for organizations to provide challenging and meaningful work to recognize employees for their contribution, for the achievements that they make opportunities for.
David Long | 37:50
They’re providing opportunities for advancement and growth within the organization. They, they can, doesn’t always have to be a spelled out growth path, but to at least have people let people know there’s opportunities for you to grow here and advance here, to give them trust, autonomy, responsibility, uh, to do their work according to their best, uh, to, to how they see, uh, fit to, to do that personal development and learning sense of accomplishment. All these things are things that we, we, that we use, we can tap into as an organization, uh, in order to get people a little more motivated.
Matt Wride | 38:27
Dave? Uh, yeah, go ahead. You were gonna say that our model really aligns and that’s, that’s true because, um, our CEO wrote a book called Engagement Magic, and Magic is an acronym for meaning, autonomy, growth, impact, connection. He, he really is building upon herzberg’s, but what he he does is he, he helps people see that the, those high level motivators are just vital based on our research, whether it’s autonomy or growth plan or meaning, impact and, and ultimately connection, uh, which is belonging and we’ll talk about that. But yeah, this is what we see. And so it’s this balance between satisfaction elements or hygiene factors as well as these higher order needs. And this is back to where Maslow still comes to play, is we’ve gotta, we’ve kind of have to deal with the physiological and the security before we can go to the higher order needs, which is, hey, I, I want the autonomy to define my work and, and my growth paths,
David Long | 39:23
Right?
David Long | 39:25
So I, me, we mentioned salary and benefits. So let’s talk about pay as motivator. And I’m just gonna, we’ve talked about a whole bunch already, but I want to talk about it one more time and just say, first of all, fair and competitive pay that aligns with industry standards is essential as a foundation to motivation, fair pay, competitive pay compared to the other organizations around you that are, that are paying people to do similar work. You should be right in the neighborhood with what they’re paying. If you are not, then it’s gonna be the fastest path to demo motivation. If you are fair and competitive, I would not expect that that’s gonna elicit any additional motivation other than, uh, you know, you pay people to do a job, they’re going to do the job up to the, to. I wouldn’t say that I’m not, so I wouldn’t say the minimum qualification, but if they have no other reason to be motivated other than their base pay, then they are going to just kind of do the minimum, um, that, that you’re requiring in order for them to keep the job and keep that paycheck coming in.
David Long | 40:24
Performance pace pay, uh, performance based pay links, pay to individual or routine performance or possibly productive behaviors. Be careful with what you incentivize with pay. And we talked about that with the daycare example. Uh, there’s another example that I love that, that many of you may, may have heard before. When, when British government, uh, had rule over India, um, they had in, I don’t know if it was multiple towns or, or in just one of the towns, they had a problem with, with, uh, cobras, uh, just too many cobras venomous snakes that, uh, that, that, uh, were causing damage to the population. And so the British government came in and gave it an incentive to kill, and they just said like a bounty program for cobras, and they paid people to collect cobras. And, um, and they, uh, what happened was they immediately, they saw a decrease in the number of cobras in India.
David Long | 41:19
Uh, and so it was initially effective, but what what ended up happening was people figured out, well, in order for me to keep getting, I love getting this paid for, bringing in cobras for me to continue to do it, I need to kind of breed my own cobras. So they started Cobra Farms and um, and they started bringing those in. And so when the British government, of course found out about this, said, well, we’ve gotta remove this incentive. And so now the Cobra Farms no longer have any incentive to keep the cobras, so they just released them. So now the problem that they tried to fix with a, with a pay incentive has made everything worse. ’cause there’s now more co cobras than there were to begin with. That is one of the classic examples under perverse incentives that, like, if you look up perverse incentives, um, that’s one of the classic examples that you’re gonna find about that. But we can see that sort of situation play out within our own organizations. We put an incentive hoping to drive an outcome. People will do whatever they want, they’ll step on whomever they need to step on in order to get that incentive. And then what, by the time you’re done with it, it’s driven the wrong sort of behavior and you kind of wish you’d never started with that incentive to begin with. Macro
Matt Wride | 42:32
Dave and, and Dave, I was just gonna say that’s right. And we, we see that you, it’s dangerous on the operation side, on the revenue side, it’s a great idea. Yeah, you can really motivate the type of behavior you want. So we’re not anti pay, but you need to put people into proper buckets. And if they’re operationally or QA or r and d may not be pay, may not be what’s motivating, but on the revenue side, it can be really a great tool.
David Long | 43:00
One of the things to think about is can I visibly see the impact that I have in at, uh, obtaining that incentive? Um, is that something that I can visibly see? In other words, um, incentive programs where we tie it to m MBOs or KPIs that I don’t really have any bearing on whether they that can be demotivated, because if we’re not making that ca that key performance indicator, if we’re not, if we’re not getting there, and I feel like I have no control over that, that I feel like now I can’t get that bonus. And, and now I, I feel like I have no control over it. And that’s demotivating for me is, that’s why Matt mentioned on the operation side is tough. I, I’m in favor of, of bonuses and things like that on the operations side, but you’ve gotta be careful on what behaviors and what, what you tie it to and make people feel like there’s some self-determination and being able to get that bonus or else the bonus is just, Hey, we’re giving you extra salary, um, at the end of the year or quarterly or whatever it is.
David Long | 44:02
And that’s fine, that’s great. I want people to get that too. But it’s, but if it’s, if it’s not clear on I do these things and I I do these behaviors in order to get this outcome and then I get my bonus, then it can be a little bit of a demotivator for people, um, to, to even have that in place. I would say better to put it in base pay if, if you can’t draw a clear line between their performance and the bonus that they’re receiving, better to put it in base pay or have the bonus be part of their base pay package. Um, employees certainly do show additional effort and motivation when leading up to a promotion or pay increase, like leading up to the pay increase immediately following a promotion or pay increase. They’re, they do give more. And it’s getting back to the equity idea of, Hey, I’m making more, I’m gonna put in more effort that that situation only lasts for so long.
David Long | 44:54
Once somebody considers this part of their regular fair compensation, it no longer provides extra motivation and it returns to that level of hygiene factor as long as it meets their needs, it’s gonna be a hygiene factor and they’re going to, they’re, they’re going to be okay with it, but they’re, it’s not like they’re gonna be, it’s not gonna be the thing that gets them up in the morning for a while. It may be, but eventually it won’t be. So motivating through pay can be effective, but it’s very expensive. So on the revenue side, we know it’s very effective, but it is also very expensive on the revenues side. Like you have to pay people to go out and, and, and get new business and everything like that. It’s very expensive on the revenue side and it can be very expensive on the, on the operation side especially, or even within, like if you’re motivating an HR through pay, that’s gonna be a very expensive proposition because we can give a raise three months later, I feel like, oh, that’s just part of my normal pay.
David Long | 45:48
I’m looking for my next raise again, and for me to stay motivated and give that extra effort, I’m gonna need to make more money. And so it’s this, this kind of, this upward spiral of pay and motivation and pay and motivation. If that’s the only tool that you use, and again, we’re pro people making as much money as they possibly can. We want that and we want people to make a really good living for themselves and feel like they’re secure and everything like that. But just if we’re thinking about it as a motivator, it can be a motivator in certain situations, but in other situations is better to use other things. And even in those situations where pay is a motivator, it should not be the only motivator, the only tool that you’re using in your toolkit to motivate employees. So let’s talk about intrinsic motivators, which we’ve just covered in hers.
David Long | 46:31
First two factor model, no discussion about intrinsic motivation would be complete without talking about the impact of kittens on personal motivation. No modern conversation about, uh, about this would be complete without talking about kittens. I’m kidding. Of course, that was the example from the yarn factory or that, that Matt or the whatever factory he talked about earlier. But uh, but in this case, we’re talking about things that are more modern intrinsic motivators. Things like, am I a fit for the job that I have? Do my skills match the expectations and my personal personality match for my team, for my organization, my ambition, my growth potential, um, our intrinsic motivators? Do I feel and beyond just like growth opportunities, do I feel challenged and stretched in the job that I’m doing on a day-to-day basis? Do my values what’s important to me? Do they appear to also be important to the organization that I work for?
David Long | 47:27
Do I feel like we’re making some positive difference in the world? Do I have a sense of meaning and purpose in my work? Do I feel like I belong here? Do I feel like I have the trust of the organization and autonomy from the organization to do my work in a way that I see best? These are all intrinsic motivators. When you think about this, you might think about it like you would think about a garden. I can plant something, a flower into pretty much any piece of dirt and if I dump enough fertilizer on it, consistently water it enough and it, I’ll probably be able to get that, that, uh, that flower to bloom, like if I continue to dump on it, all these things. But if I have prepared an environment, um, where flowers will thrive and then I plant that in there, I don’t need to dump all the external things into it. It will use the soil, uh, the environment, the natural moisture, all those things, the sunlight in that area, all those things will go into make, just the flower will grow on its own without me doing all those extra, uh, extra things. And so what we talk about at decision wise is creating the right conditions for motivation, creating the right environment for mo motivation. So let’s look at some definitions.
David Long | 48:44
Sometimes we think about the environment, we think about, um, you know, sort of the situation your employees are in. We think about culture. The way we would define culture is a set of values, norms, guiding beliefs and understandings that is shared by members of an organization and is taught to new members as a way to feel, think, and behave. Another way to say that is essentially culture is the way we do things around here. Well, culture includes all these incentive programs, all these other things that we’ve talked about. It’s not explicitly, culture is not explicitly the, the employee experience within the organization. So what is employee experience? Employee experience is the sum of perceptions employees have about their interactions with the organization in which they work. Or another way we would say that is how we experience the culture. The culture is on its own, and then the employee experience becomes how do I react, experience, et cetera.
David Long | 49:42
The, the way we do things around here, how, what’s the impact of the way we do things around here on the employees? And that’s what employee experience is. Employee engagement is an emotional state where we feel passionate, energetic, and committed toward our work and turn we fully invest our best selves in the work that we do. Or in other words, our, and I would even include the word here, positive, our positive response to the employee experience. When we, uh, have the right garden and the right conditions present, then we are more willing and more able to bring our best selves into the work that we do. And that can be a separate conversation, although it’s part of it from how much we’re paying people. That’s gonna be a separate con conversation. Then what are the extrinsic rewards that we’re providing people and their extrinsic re recognition or lack of recommendation, recognition and presence and punishment.
David Long | 50:36
That’s a separate conversation. Well, what’s the interesting in engagement and motivation? Well, employee engagement we would think of as an outcome. And Matt mentioned this earlier, I’m not gonna get too far into this, but when we think about it, it’s an outcome of all the things that we do from a culture perspective, the way we do things around here and the impact that has on, on employees, employee experience, that is what the result we get is either engagement or disengagement from all of those things. But we also find that engagement is a personal choice based on all those, the condition that people, this is why flowers are different than people. You create the right environment and the flower, if the flower had a choice, it might not grow, but employees, you can create the right environment. They still have a choice of whether they’re going to engage in that environment.
David Long | 51:24
Employee motivation is the energy employees have on a day-to-day or minute to minute basis to exert physical, mental or emotional effort and energy into their work. In other words, it’s the force that prompts employees to take action. It’s the thing within them or outside of them, internal or external that prompts them to take action. And so employee engagement, um, if we look at disengaged employees, how they’re different is that disengaged employees can be motivated over short periods of time just as engaged. Employees can be unmotivated over short periods of time. But we would say engaged employees are of course much easier to keep motivated. They’re gonna find a lot of that motivation inside themselves on a day-to-day basis. We’re not gonna have to keep checking in with them and applying extrinsic methods in order to keep them motivated. Day-to-day. Matt, anything to add?
Matt Wride | 52:16
Yeah, I just, a couple things. Um, the, the, um, when you think about motivators, it, it’s, you have to put it in the context of the culture and that’s one key point is you cannot separate what you do to try to drive motivation. You cannot separate from the culture. It’s not just an independent activity that you set to down when you try to think about total rewards, right? Total rewards is part of the overall culture and the key with it, with pay, for example, is take it off the table. It is a hygiene factor. It is a satisfaction factor. Once it’s off, it doesn’t continue. It, it, it’s, it’s, um, ability to motivate it. It just wanes. It, it, it goes like this in levels. It doesn’t continue on a slope. And so you have to have a holistic perspective about what you put in place, the conditions you put in place.
Matt Wride | 53:10
The other point I wanna make too is that when we think intrinsically, one of the things we need to do as employers is make sure we help people find good fits. Make sure we’re taking the time upfront in our recruiting and onboarding efforts to make sure we’re finding fits. And once we get ’em in, make sure we put growth or pathways that help people select good fits. ’cause fit is part of that intrinsic motivation. It it is, uh, it is a tool that as an org leader, you have available to you, you can do a lot with comp and benefits, but then fit and all these other things are all, um, levers that can be pulled. But they all are in the context of the broader culture that we measure through the experience. We can’t measure directly the culture. We can only measure the experience. And that’s why we make it a distinction is that what we measure is the experience, but what we’re really building is the culture.
David Long | 54:03
Yeah, it’s interesting because you, me, you mentioned fit, and that’s one of those things as HR professionals, you really want to think about getting the right fit for your organization. Um, personality fit, cultural fit, but also fitting them to the right tasks and responsibilities. Uh, and so when we think about the organization, the stakeholders, influencers in the organization that help us to drive motivation, senior leaders, hr, and we’re gonna focus specifically on managers and teams today. And I wanna make sure we get to this. So senior leaders, I’m gonna skip over this and HR, and we’re gonna go straight to managers and teams, uh, because I think this is such a critical part of this discussion. Management teams, much of the employee experience is shaped directly at the team level managers, uh, competence, attitudes and behaviors shape the culture and experience of the team. So let’s talk about three different manager archetypes.
David Long | 54:54
Um, this is something that we’ve, that, that we have in our research stumbled upon the need for people to not just be, to really tap into intrinsic motivation. They don’t just need to be connected at the team level and at the manager level. They need to be connected to the whole organization. So we have different kinds of managers that we’re gonna talk about. The Meet First manager, the team first manager at the org. First manager, a me first manager is somebody that talk about their tactics, takes credit for the work of their team. We’ve all probably experienced the me first manager. They put personal desires and needs ahead of the desires of the team. So whatever I want is most important. That what the team needs is not most important. Uses scorched t tactics often to lead. Um, leads a lot with the stick, um, manages up so their, their manager might think they’re the greatest thing in the world, but their direct reports usually do not.
David Long | 55:47
The results of this are burnout on the team, high turnover and low motivation. The second one we can talk about is the team First manager. Um, tactics of the Team. First manager protects the team members from other parts of the organization. They wrap their arms around ’em. This is something that, that, and this is interesting because Team First Manager seems virtuous, but in fact they can be just as damaging in some cases to the organization as a me first manager. And, and instinct for a manager, especially a young manager or a manager for the first time, is to wrap their arms around their team and really try to protect it from the rest of the organization. Um, they prioritize the team goals over organizational goals. Like, hey, whatever our goals are here on the team, that’s most important. Um, sacrifices personally for the team. So they may say, well, I don’t wanna make sure, I don’t wanna make our team work over the weekend, and so I’m gonna work over the weekend so they don’t have to.
David Long | 56:39
And so we, we see that behavior a lot from Team First managers and it’s wonderful and teams love that. And I’m not saying all of these things are the wrong thing to do, but this is kind of the archetype. And they, they play the role of the hero for the team. They’re, they’re the team’s hero and the representative to the rest of the organization, et cetera. Well, they also, results of this are very strong relationships between manager and team. It’s a good thing, but it also results in silos. I’ve protected you from every other part of the organization, therefore we don’t collaborate well with the rest of the organization. High team connection, low organizational connection. I, we care about our team and our team members, but we don’t really care what happens to the rest of the organization. And it creates an us versus them mentality.
David Long | 57:19
Last one is gonna be workforce manager. And this is what we’re really trying to, uh, when we talk about the garden and creating the right environment, the right invitation for people to be able to feel like they can be motivated in your organization. This is the person that’s gonna be able to do that. What we found in our research is that the, uh, that that a sense of belonging is far more important than almost any other thing When we’re looking to engage and motivate our employees. Like if I feel like I belong in the organization, I feel like I’m gonna give more of myself. It’s, it’s the easiest way or the not the easiest, but the, the quickest way to tap into intrinsic motivation is to get someone to feel like they belong there. And so the org first manager is really designed around making them feel like they’re not just a part of this team, but a part of the organization.
David Long | 58:02
So they advocate for the decisions coming down from top leadership. Even if they don’t always agree with it initially, they find a way to advocate for it. They advocate for the vision and values. They prioritize organization goals over team goals. They treat, um, they treat the management team as their primary team. So they’re their peer managers. They’ll, they’ll reach out to their, their, uh, peer managers within the organization to make sure that they feel like we’re, we’re a part of the management team and they look to build employee relationships with the organization. In other words, they’re taking their employees and they’re saying, Hey, let me introduce you to these other parties in the organization. I’m not protecting you from them. I am integrating you with the rest of the organization. And the results of that is a sense of organizational belonging from employees, engaged team that see and motivate and engaged team the season and motivate, I’ve just mentioned this.
David Long | 58:50
I feel like I belong here, is most common driver of engagement on our surveys. I feel like I belong here. If you can get people to say that, then you’re gonna get people to tap into that intrinsic motivation. Okay. I’ve gone very quickly through this. Um, one last thing that I’ll mention, and I’m sorry we’ll not have time for questions today, but one last thing that I’ll mention is something to ask yourself as you’re thinking about creating the right environment for motivation to incur occur. What experience are we creating with the culture of this organization? What experience are we creating for employees? And is it the right experience to foster motivation? And to the extent that you can kind of evaluate your culture and your attitudes, your beliefs as an organization with through that lens, you will be able to tap into that deeper intrinsic motivation and layer that on your extrinsic motivators, which we all have in order to really maximize the performance of the, uh, of, of the people in your organization.
Matt Wride | 59:49
You know, I just wanna, yeah, I just wanna throw one thing ’cause I know we’re at the end. If as you sit down next time you think about how you’re gonna play a role in motivating employees, think of yourself as an experienced design professional. That’s, that’s the thing. You are designing experiences that pull from people and empower people. And when you think of that, then think across the broad experience. That’s everything that that goes into. And that’s what we’ve tried to lay out for you is motivation is much more than just this. For that motivation is really becoming great design, experienced design professionals. And uh, that’s what I want you to take away from this.
David Long | 01:00:29
Thanks, Matt. Thanks everybody. We, uh, again, uh, as I mentioned at the beginning, we will send out, uh, via email Shem and HRCI credit. So look for that. Um, thank you for your, uh, participation in today’s webinar. Thank you for listening. We really appreciate it. Have a great day everybody.
